The Senedd met in the Chamber and by video-conference at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

Statement by the Llywydd

A warm welcome to this Plenary session. Before we begin, I want to set out a few points. This meeting will be held in a hybrid format, with some Members in the Chamber and others joining by video-conference. A Plenary meeting held using video-conference, in accordance with the Standing Orders of the Welsh Parliament, constitute Senedd proceedings for the purposes of the Government of Wales Act 2006. Some of the provisions of Standing Order 34 will apply for today's Plenary meeting, and these are noted on your agenda. And I would remind Members that Standing Orders relating to order in Plenary meetings apply to this meeting, and apply equally to Members in the Chamber as to those joining virtually.

1. Questions to the Minister for Finance and Trefnydd

The first item on our agenda this afternoon is questions to the Minister for finance, and the first question is from Janet Finch-Saunders.

The Economy Budget

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: 1. What discussions has the Minister had with the Minister for Economy, Transport and North Wales about the possibility of increasing the budget available in 2020-21 for spend on the economy in Wales? OQ55724

Rebecca Evans AC: I have regular discussions with the Minister for Economy, Transport and North Wales about the fiscal challenges facing the economy as a result of the pandemic. We have so far provided additional funding amounting to more than £1.7 billion to help support our economy across Wales in 2020-21.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you, Minister. If the ever-changing details available from Business Wales on the website are anything to go by, it now appears that businesses in Aberconwy will potentially be awarded the same support as new businesses going into lockdown on Friday—new areas going into lockdown—as other regions, despite Aberconwy having been in local lockdown since 1 October. And I can tell you, many of my businesses are facing hundreds of thousands of pounds of loss. Now, the decision to make a further £1,000 discretionary to those areas who were affected by lockdown measures prior to this firebreak announcement is simply unacceptable. So, will you liaise with the Minister for economy to ensure that he does have the necessary budget allocation to provide additional financial support to businesses in local authority areas that were already in local lockdown and, by the end of it, will have nearly been in lockdown for approximately six weeks? And will you urge him to review the decision to enact a rateable value cap of £51,000 so that my local hospitality businesses get the support they actually need to support their business and, indeed, to support their employees? Thank you.

Rebecca Evans AC: Both the Minister for economy and I do recognise what an incredibly difficult time this has been for businesses across Wales, but probably nowhere more so, I imagine, than in the tourism and hospitality sector. And that's why a total of 1,206 microbusinesses and small and medium-sized enterprises in the tourism and hospitality sector in north Wales have already been awarded funding through the economic resilience fund, and that totals £25.9 million. And in addition to that funding, in north Wales our regional tourism engagement fund and tourism product innovation fund revenue grants are supporting both public and private sector organisations to deliver nine projects, to a value of nearly £1 million. And in the north Wales tourism and hospitality sector, the Development Bank of Wales's COVID-19 Wales business loan scheme has provided over £5.7 million of support to 105 businesses. So, we and the Development Bank of Wales are doing our best to support businesses across Wales.
I do take the point that the Member has raised, but we've tried to reflect the additional challenges facing those businesses that have already experienced local lockdown, across the majority of local authority areas in Wales, by ensuring that there is additional funding available through the latest package. And it is worth recognising and never losing sight of the fact that businesses across Wales have, by far, the largest access to the greatest amount of support, compared to any other part of the United Kingdom. And I think that that's a testament to the priority that we're putting on supporting business. But, that said, I completely don't take away from the challenges that businesses are facing in this difficult period, and especially in the tourism and hospitality sector.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Let me begin just by welcoming the additional support that's come in yesterday. It's not going to help everyone, but it'll go a long, long way, I have to say, particularly the discretionary fund, to fill some of those gaps for people who've fallen between the stools so far. And I'm certainly speaking to local authority leaders in my area so that they can process the applications quickly and explain to people how they work as well. But could I ask, in your discussions with the economy Minister and with the First Minister, can you also make the representations to the UK Government, as well, for additional funding, both for jobs in particular—for job support—as well as business support, because our coffers are limited in Wales? And, whilst I agree with the previous Conservative speaker, who asked for more support to be forthcoming, that support needs to be forthcoming from the UK Government, not just the limited coffers we have available. So, will she make those representations, please?

Rebecca Evans AC: I absolutely will make those representations. In fact, I have a finance quadrilateral meeting with the Chief Secretary to the Treasury just later on this afternoon, where I'll be making exactly that point about the switch over from the job retention scheme to the job support scheme. It unnecessarily creates difficulties for businesses in Wales, where they'll need to apply to two different schemes over a period of two weeks in order to provide their staff with the support they need. And there's obviously that real problem with the quantum of support now that's available for each of those jobs and the way in which the UK Government has decided what kind of jobs are viable jobs. There are whole sectors that are missing out as a result of that. The arts sector is one of them. But I can give my colleague Huw Irranca-Daviesthe assurance that I will be raising exactly this issue later on this afternoon.

Support for Businesses

Alun Davies AC: 2. Will the Minister make a statement on support for businesses affected by Welsh Government regulations? OQ55763

Rebecca Evans AC: In response to the imminent national firebreak, and in line with our commitment to provide further support, we have created an enhanced phase 3 of the Wales-only economic resilience fund, comprising of almost £300 million to support businesses affected by the firebreak and previous local lockdown measures.

Alun Davies AC: Minister, people across Wales, and certainly in my constituency in Blaenau Gwent, are very grateful for the work that the Welsh Government has done to support businesses throughout this time. I know there have been many hundreds of businesses in my own constituency that have been helped and supported by the Welsh Government, and I think the largest package of business support anywhere in the UK is something that's safeguarded many jobs already. But, as has already been pointed out by our colleague Huw Irranca-Davies, some of the smallest businesses particularly do fall through some of the gaps that we have available to us. I'm thinking of taxi drivers, for example, and I'm thinking of people who are working as tradesmen and tradeswomen in order to support them and their families who don't work in a formal corporate structure, if you like. Minister, is it possible to ensure that we do have the funds available to support these people who are the lifeblood of a local economy?

Rebecca Evans AC: As part of our £300 million support package, just announced this week, we are ensuring that there is a discretionary element there for local authorities to disseminate to businesses in their area, and, to do so, we're particularly thinking of those businesses that, as Alun Davies says, don't have a premises, so they're not subject to non-domestic rates, for example, and so they miss out on that automatic grant funding that all businesses receiving small business rate relief will receive, but nonetheless they play an important part in our local economies and they're jobs that are often particularly vulnerable. So, I'm really pleased that, with this particular scheme, we've been able to provide that discretionary element of funding, and we're currently working through the final guidance and the mechanism by which we will provide that funding to local authorities, but progress is very fast on that, so we should be able to say more very shortly.

Darren Millar AC: Minister, businesses in Conwy and Denbighshire are literally on their knees, and there are many jobs that rely on those businesses that are now hanging by a thread. It's been almost three weeks since you put Conwy and Denbighshire, along with other parts of north-east Wales, into local lockdown. That means that they already have a wound that is three weeks deeper economically than the wound that is going to be inflicted on these parts of Wales as a result of the Wales-wide lockdown that will commence on Friday, and yet, as has already been pointed out, there are businesses there that have not received any additional support to reflect that local lockdown period. I've heard you griping about the resources available to the Welsh Government. You've had £4.4 billion's worth of firepower at your disposal, thanks to the support of the UK Government. Why can't you focus some more support on those places that have not yet been eligible for additional resources in north-east Wales, as part of the package that you have unveiled along with the economy Minister this week? And can you assure businesses in Conwy and Denbighshire that they, because of the three weeks additional pain that they've endured, will be at the front of the queue for support?

Rebecca Evans AC: Well, as Alun Davies has just recognised in his contribution, businesses across Wales have access to the most generous package of business support anywhere in the UK. And I think that that is a reflection of the priority that we've put on supporting businesses through the adjustments that we've made to Welsh Government budgets, alongside the additional consequential funding we've received from the UK Government. And, as a result of the decisions that we've taken, in Conwy alone, 461 micro and SME businesses have been awarded funding, totalling £8 million, and 83 start-up grants have been awarded to businesses in Conwy as well, totalling £207,500. And through the COVID-19 non-domestic business rates grant, a total of 3,311 awards have been processed to Conwy businesses, totalling nearly £40 million. A great deal of this funding wouldn't have been possible had it not been for the prioritisation exercise that we undertook across Government, which released £0.5 billion of additional support in order for us to fund our economic resilience fund. So, Welsh Government is going above and beyond what you're seeing from the UK Government in relation to our support for businesses.

Delyth Jewell AC: During the UK-wide lockdown earlier in the year it became clear that certain people were not protected by the furlough scheme. One example is Aled from Ystrad Mynach in my region. He set up a business a year ago, which meant he didn't qualify for the self-employment income support scheme, which demanded tax returns for two financial years to access it, and his business also didn't qualify for the Welsh Government's start-up grant scheme. The loss of earnings for his business amount to over £1,000. Now that we're entering a firebreak on Friday, Minister, what assurances can you give me that self-employed people in Aled's situation won't fall through the cracks again? Could I also ask you, Minister, if you'd consider the call from the Wales freelance taskforce, who are representing the interests of freelancers working in the performance industry, to increase the funding available? They say the current scheme is oversubscribed, with many unable to access any support. So, I'd be interested to hear if the Welsh Government intends to help them further.

Rebecca Evans AC: Thank you very much for that question, and also for setting out the particular circumstances that Aled finds himself in. Clearly, I don't know the full circumstances behind his situation, but, as I said in response to a previous question, it's really important that, this time, we have added that discretionary element for local authorities, which hasn't been there before. And that's in recognition of the cases that have been brought to us, such as Aled who you've talked about, who've fallen between all of those different offers of support from both Welsh Government and the UK Government. So, we're trying to ensure that there is an additional mechanism now for local authorities to be able to provide support for businesses locally. And, as I say, we're just working through the final detail on that, with a view to providing local authorities with some guidance.

Caroline Jones AC: Minister, sadly far too many businesses are falling through the cracks in the support offered, and what support there is certainly doesn't make up for the long-term impacts that various lockdowns have had. Businesses don't know if they'll be open or closed from one week to the next, and many microbusinesses get no support at all because they don't have multiple years of accounts. One example: my constituent contacted me concerning her beauty salon's future because she's not eligible for support. She doesn't have full accounts due to maternity leave. Minister, what steps will you take to ensure all businesses in Wales impacted by COVID protection measures do receive financial support, such as my constituent through her maternity leave? Diolch.

Rebecca Evans AC: Thank you for providing another example of a business that hasn't been able to access funding thus far. Clearly, I don't want to give the impression that the Welsh Government is going to be able to support every single business in Wales, because the funding we have simply doesn't extend to that. So, I do want to be realistic, but, at the same time, I do want to reflect that we have taken on board and considered well those issues that have been brought forward by yourself and others in terms of those individuals who run businesses that have fallen through the gaps in support thus far. And that's why this discretionary element is so important, and why it's important that we get the advice and guidance for local authorities right in order to enable them to support those locally often very important businesses.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Questions now from the party spokespeople. Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you very much, Llywydd, and may I thank the Minister for the supplementary budget published last night? I look forward to the scrutiny in the Finance Committee over the next few weeks. There are substantial sums that have been vired within this financial year, as we would expect, because of the exceptional circumstances, and that includes to local government. But there is great uncertainty about next year's budgets. Without going into too much detail, my council on Ynys Môn has spoken to me about the millions of pounds of deficit that they can identify already for the next year directly because of this pandemic, pressures on the care sector. You look at things such as additional pressure on the council tax reduction scheme, because more people are reliant on it and so forth.
So, can the Minister give us an update on what principles the Government will follow in terms of ensuring that councils can balance their books in the next financial year? And will she look again, in light of what's being highlighted now, at the concept of budgeting over a longer period—let's say three years—in order to give more assurance for the future?

Rebecca Evans AC: Thank you to Rhun ap Iorwerth for raising the importance of certainty for local authorities, but also for Welsh Government, in terms of managing its budget over a period of years. I'm sure that he will share my disappointment at the news today that there will not be a longer term comprehensive spending review and instead we'll have a one-year spending round—a one-year spending review.
The UK Government has said it will look to give greater certainty to health in England, to schools in England and also to large infrastructure projects. But that is of no use to the Welsh Government at all, because we need to know the total quantum of our funding to understand where, if anywhere, the additional funding, should there be some for hospitals in England, for example, is coming from. So, it's a really disappointing result, I think, for Welsh Government and also then for local authorities, because we simply can't pass on that certainty if we don't have it ourselves.
We're working very hard at the moment in preparing our budget for next year. I've already had a series of bilaterals with my colleagues and just recently one with my colleague, the Minister for Local Government and Housing, who was very keen to press the case for support for local authorities. And in terms of the overall Government's strategic approach, we've agreed again this year, obviously, that health will remain a priority, our priority, unsurprisingly, given the situation we're in, but also, again, we will want to give local authorities the best possible settlement for the next financial year.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you for that response and, of course, I agree with the Minister in terms of the decision not to proceed with a comprehensive spending review at the UK level. It is proof yet again, for me, that Westminster and Whitehall aren't working for Wales—they work for Westminster and Whitehall.
Now, staying with local government, one element that's hit local authorities is loss of income. It hits various local authorities in various ways, depending on the elements that they have within their portfolio that generate income. But, of course, the loss of income at local government level has a direct impact on everyone through council tax ultimately, perhaps, but certainly in terms of the sustainability of the services that everyone is reliant upon. So, can the Government give an assurance that there will be compensation in terms of that loss of income for local authorities—not just now, but there is also income that will be lost for many months to come, because of the nature of the pandemic that we're currently facing?

Rebecca Evans AC: Well, support for local authorities has taken two forms: first of all, there's been the hardship fund, and that's a fund of £310 million, which includes additional funding to tackle homelessness—to get rough-sleepers off the street, for example—the funding for free school meals, adult social care, school cleaning and so on, and some general funding to help local authorities to address the issues that they're facing. But, alongside that, we've put in place a fund of £198 million to take local authorities to the end of this financial year in order for them to address the loss of income that they have been experiencing. That funding is drawn down on a monthly basis. So, I can say that, to date, we've paid over £127 million in additional costs through that hardship fund, and £59 million for lost income thus far. The lost income, I should say, is claimed on a quarterly basis, whereas the hardship fund's on the monthly basis. So, I think the funding that we have put aside for local authorities through both of those funds, amounting to £0.5 billion, is sufficient, as best my understanding is in terms of discussions that I've been having with local authorities, to meet both of those aspects of the challenge that they're facing. Certainly, for this financial year, there'll be further discussions to be had as we move forward with the budget process.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: That's the point I'm making here: this isn't something that's going to be over soon. We need to look at this as part of proposals for next year too.
One final question, again on local government, but also looking to the longer term. I welcome the funds that have been put in place to assist businesses directly. I'm still pushing for greater support, particularly to some sectors that have been hit particularly hard and those that are still slipping through the net. But when it comes to the work of rebuilding the economy, yes, helping individual businesses is important, but also economic planning and development on the ground is going to be hugely important too, and local government is going to to be crucial and will need resources in order to do that kind of delivery in terms of economic development at a local level. Can we have an outline of the level of economic development support that councils can expect? Because the councils know the areas that they serve and the opportunities that will arise as we rebuild.

Rebecca Evans AC: Well, you will certainly have had a flavour already of the kind of areas in which we'll be investing through local government with the work that Jeremy Miles has been leading on the reconstruction package, and you will have heard the announcement of £340 million to support some of that work. And some of that funding will be going through local authorities, with a particular focus on house building, for example—the modern methods of construction, those homes that are built to very good environmental standards. My colleagues will be making further announcements in the coming weeks about schemes that are included in that £340 million, so I won't say too much more in terms of the particular schemes that will be announced, but local authorities will have an important part to play in a number of those schemes.
Looking forward, we're having some very good discussions with local authorities at the moment to explore whether or not we have a role in supporting borrowing for local authorities to undertake some capital work that is in line with our own strategic priorities, which you'll find within the Welsh infrastructure investment plan, and those discussions are ongoing at the moment. But, again, the areas of particular interest to us are housing and healthcare.

Conservative spokesperson, Nick Ramsay.

Nick Ramsay AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Good afternoon, Minister. Minister, these are worrying times for Welsh businesses and for workers across Wales with the ongoing pandemic. What assessment of the financial costs associated with the impending firebreak have you made, and have you considered the cost of any future potential lockdowns as well—rolling lockdowns?

Rebecca Evans AC: So, clearly, the impact of any lockdown on businesses is particularly harsh, there's no denying that, and that's why we've put in place this £300 million support package for business, with a view to doing absolutely everything we can to support businesses across Wales, and to make the application process—where there is an application needed and it's not automatic—as swift as possible to get that money to businesses as quickly as possible. Because we know that many businesses are facing such difficult times that they can't be waiting for that funding to come through to them as well.
We're also making those representations to the UK Government. So, whilst Welsh Government has a really strong and important role in providing a level of business support, when it comes to wage subsidies, that is absolutely the responsibility of the UK Government and it's something that Welsh Government doesn't receive funding for. We just simply don't have the level of resources to be able to step into that area and take that on without funding from the UK Government. So, any support that the spokesperson is able to offer in that regard in terms of making representation to his colleagues in Westminster would be much appreciated.

Nick Ramsay AC: I'll do what I can, Minister, in that regard. The impending firebreak is clearly going to have a significant financial impact on businesses and employers across Wales. You've spoken about the need for co-operation with the UK Government. It now appears that Welsh Government officials knew that a firebreak was coming on Wednesday of last week, yet the Welsh Government only wrote to the Chancellor on Friday. By that time, it was already clear that the job support scheme could not be brought forward in Wales earlier than was planned. How are you now ensuring that adequate finance is in place to plug any gaps so that Welsh businesses don't end up having to plug the wage gap themselves, or, in the worst-case scenario, end up making workers redundant?

Rebecca Evans AC: It's a great shame that the UK Government didn't respond positively to our request to bring forward the job support scheme by just one week. We even offered to provide the funding that would fill the gap from Welsh Government resources in order for them to do that. So, that is a great shame that the UK Government hasn't taken its responsibility to workers in Wales seriously, as I would have liked them to have done. I'll have the opportunity, as I mentioned earlier, to raise this again with the Chief Secretary to the Treasury in a meeting later on this afternoon. But, clearly, it's not a satisfactory situation, and particularly for businesses that now have to apply to two different schemes in order to support their staff, and we are very concerned, obviously, about the impact that that will have on the workforce and on people's jobs.

Nick Ramsay AC: Thank you. I agree with you on that last point, Minister; it's certainly not a satisfactory situation. Ian Price, the director of the Confederation of British Industry has said that it appears that some people may well be falling through the cracks between the job retention scheme and the job support scheme, whilst Ben Cottam of Federation of Small Businesses Wales has said that
'the amount of confusion surrounding this...illustrates just how complex'
all of this can be to a small employer in Wales.
Looking to the future now, businesses have been promised access to funding of up to £5,000 each in some cases through the current package of support that's on offer. What discussions have you had with the Minister for economy to ensure this money is made available to businesses as swiftly as possible?

Rebecca Evans AC: I have regular discussions with the Minister for economy and transport on support for businesses in Wales, and we've sought to create a scheme here that provides local authorities with the ability to move these grants on to businesses as soon as possible. Some of them, obviously, will be automatic, in terms of supporting those businesses that are subject to small business rate relief. What I would do is encourage businesses to ensure that the local authorities have their up-to-date details. I know that that held up a few payments previously, so that would be something that I would encourage businesses to do. But we're working very closely with local authorities, and I can't express enough my thanks to the workers in local authorities who last time got the grants out to businesses so quickly and efficiently, and I know that they will do the same again—many of them going above and beyond, working long hours to do that. So, I'd like to put on record my real thanks for that.

County Councils

Adam Price AC: 3. To what extent will the Minister ensure that the Welsh Government's budget can be adapted over the coming months to support county councils in Wales? OQ55761

Rebecca Evans AC: We continue to work closely with the Welsh Local Government Association and local government to assess and respond to the financial pressures currently placed on them by the pandemic. We are providing up to £0.5 billion of funding to support councils and to help them respond to the impacts of the pandemic.

Adam Price AC: If it is true, as you said earlier in response to Rhun ap Iorwerth, that the funding that is already there in terms of the hardship fund is sufficient for the rest of the year, why has Caerphilly council said today that there is
'considerable uncertainty in respect of additional funding'
during the remainder of this current financial year, and do Ceredigion say that
it isn't entirely clear what the sum of the COVID-19 funding from the Welsh Government will be, which areas are funded, which means that it's 'difficult to make financial forecasts'?
Shouldn't you do what the Scottish Government did last week, namely provide a package of additional funding worth £750 million in addition to local councils in Scotland?

Rebecca Evans AC: Well, with respect, that's exactly what we have done. We provided a package of funding worth almost£0.5 billion to local authorities, and that funding is drawn down by local authorities on a monthly and quarterly basis on the basis of need, and the funding that they've already expended. So there shouldn't be confusion amongst local authorities in terms of what funding is available for them, because it's very clear that there is £310 million for the additional costs incurred by local authorities as a result of the pandemic, and within that we've set out what local authorities are able to claim for: work to support people off the streets, free school meals work, adult social care, temporary mortuaries, cleaning, and then a general fund that covers all sorts of other costs, such as IT staff, overtime, absences, PPE and cleaning costs. And we've also extended the support to adult social care from October to the end of the year as well, so that funding shouldn't be a mystery to local authorities. I know that the discussions I've certainly had with local authority leaders have proved very useful, and they're very welcoming of the funding and they understand it very well.
Alongside that, we worked very closely with local authorities to understand the level of the lost income that they're facing, and agreed a sum of £198 million as being sufficient to meet those costs. As I say, it's all completely under review at all times because we're working very closely and having those monthly and quarterly updates, and should I deem that that funding is insufficient, then clearly I would look at it again, but we haven't had an indication that it's not sufficient and there's been no suggestion to me that the system isn't clear.

Mark Isherwood AC: It took months for the quarter 1 funding to come through, and in July, the Welsh Local Government Association's finance sub-group report on COVID-19 income and expenditure survey for quarter 2 and future budget pressures said that the Welsh Government has had funding of at least £280 million in consequentials, and may receive more, because that was for the first and second quarters. However, there is the potential for future budget shortfalls depending on several complex and interlinked factors, a downside scenario quotes this at £475 million. Addressing deficits this large in the current financial year will require discussions across levels of Government.
The WLGA chief executive said today that the current situation made it very difficult for councils to plan financially, so I'm surprised you haven't heard that. Flintshire said managing the budget in a changing and fast-moving climate is proving very challenging, while Gwynedd described its financial situation as again being very challenging. How do you therefore respond to calls from north Wales, but representing the whole of Wales, for assurances that decisions by Welsh Government resulting in income loss and additional expenditure due to COVID continue to be met by Welsh Government, and that council tax collection losses are supported, and for clarity on what options for local authority borrowing may be permissible to meet funding pressures? That was put to me today.

Rebecca Evans AC: As I say, we have put that certainty in place for local authorities in terms of the additional funding, and as I said in response to an earlier question, to date we've paid out over £127 million for additional costs, which is claimed on a monthly basis, and £59 million for lost income so far, and that's claimed on a quarterly basis. So, as you'll see, there is a significant amount of funding in that pot yet to claimed.
I don't disagree with local authorities that this is an extremely challenging situation, and budgeting is extremely challenging, but I think that this pot of money, which we worked with local authorities to develop, I have to say, does give that certainty that the funding is there. I appreciate there are other areas where local authorities are experiencing pressures, and we're still working with local authorities on that. One would be the loss of income, for example, on council tax payments, and in recognition of that I've provided an additional £2.9 million to local authorities in order for them to address some of that lost income. We're working very closely with them to understand the loss of income from council tax over the rest of the financial year, but also doing an important and in-depth piece of work with them on the implications of potential loss of income in terms of non-domestic rates as well, so that's an ongoing piece of work.
There's no doubt that this is a challenging situation for local authorities, but we do have to recognise that this funding is in place, and a mechanism is in place that has been established in partnership with local authorities, and which actually stands local authorities in good stead to respond to the local lockdowns, because we didn't have to suddenly invent a new system: we had a system in place that was working and which local authorities could bid into, or rather claim from, for additional funding.

Rhianon Passmore AC: Minister, on 17 August this year, the Welsh Labour Government announced a funding boost of more than £216 million for local councils in Wales to provide them with that certainty they do need to plan for the remainder of the year, and it is disappointing in regard to the comprehensive spending review. That additional investment from the Welsh Government in August takes the total amount of Welsh Labour Government COVID-19 support for local authorities to almost £0.5 billion. Minister, what message does this send to my Islwyn constituents about the commitment that this Welsh Labour Government places in local authorities, such as Caerphilly county borough authority, where Labour leaders like Philippa Marsden are leading their community's responses to this unprecedented global pandemic?

Rebecca Evans AC: I thank Rhianon Passmore for that and for also giving me this opportunity to put on record my thanks to the leaders of local authorities, who have been doing incredible work supporting their communities and ensuring that their teams are able to respond to the needs of people on the ground. They have done incredible work over the whole course of the pandemic and have been wonderful partners to work with in addressing the pandemic, too.
In terms of what this says, I hope that it says that this Welsh Labour Government puts a really high premium on local authorities and the services they provide. If you look across the border, you can see exactly what the UK Government thinks of local authorities, both in terms of the way in which they have chipped away at funding for local authorities over many years, and now in the way in which they are failing to engage properly with leaders, such as Andy Burnham in Manchester, for example. So, I hope that this shows that the Welsh Government values local authorities and is very keen to work as closely as possible with local authorities, respecting them as the important partners they are in addressing this pandemic.

Cosmeston Farm

Andrew RT Davies AC: 4. Will the Minister make a statement on the Welsh Government's proposed residential development at Cosmeston Farm in Penarth? OQ55747

Rebecca Evans AC: A planning application for residential development of land at Cosmestonhas been submitted. The site is allocated for housing in the adopted Vale of Glamorgan local development plan. If permission is granted, the site will be an exemplar for affordable, sustainable homes using modern methods of construction and energy efficiency.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you, Minister, for that answer. This is a substantial development on the outskirts of Penarth. It's 60 acres of land owned by the Welsh Government and, obviously, this is a Welsh Government application to the local authority, which is the Vale of Glamorgan Council. And I declare an interest as a member of that authority. Do you think it is appropriate that such a major scheme should be brought forward and promoted by the Welsh Government with the current restrictions stopping public engagement on such major schemes? And would the Welsh Government reconsider this application, withdrawing it and waiting for better times, so that the public can have a fair crack on engagement and consultation over these major proposals for a residential development?

Rebecca Evans AC: Well, I think it's important to recognise that the land is already allocated for development in the Vale of Glamorgan's local development plan, and that has been, obviously, already adopted and it was subject itself to consultation, scrutiny and examination throughout its preparation. As I said, the land at Cosmeston would provide a significant contribution to the Vale of Glamorgan's identified housing need. And, of course, if this proposal doesn't go ahead, it's likely that an alternative site will need to be allocated. But, importantly, representations do need to be made to the council in respect of the application, and I would expect that the local authority would find ways to engage with the public and allow them to make their representations with regard to this particular scheme, regardless of the current situation.

Higher Rate Houses

Llyr Gruffydd AC: 5. Will the Minister make a statement on the number of higher rate houses appearing in the latest land transaction tax figures? OQ55756

Rebecca Evans AC: Yes. The latest LTT data was published by the Welsh Revenue Authority on 25 September. It showed that, from 1 April to 31 August, there were 3,300 higher rate transactions.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Thank you for that response. The houses within that higher rate include a number of different kinds of houses, such as second homes, buy-to-let properties and properties sold to housing associations, and so on. So there's a range within that same rate.
Now, recently in the Senedd we have discussed the housing crisis and particular proposals to tackle that, but it's proved impossible to get the necessary statistics to understand how many of those higher rate houses are second homes or buy-to-let houses and so on and so forth, and that makes it more difficult in drawing up policy. So, can I ask you whether you will ensure that LTT figures clearly differentiate between those kinds of houses bought within the higher rate, so that we can get a clearer picture of the exact nature of the income coming from the various kinds of houses?

Rebecca Evans AC: I'm grateful to Llyr Gruffydd for raising this particular issue, and I know that we have a meeting coming up shortly as well in which we can have the opportunity to talk about land transaction tax, but also the wider issue of second homes, because I know it's an issue of serious concern to many people.
Llyr is absolutely right in the sense that you cannot read or that there is huge difficulty in interpreting the data as we have it, in terms of land transaction tax and that higher rate, because it does include people who are bridging from one home to another—so, selling their main home to move into another main home, but there's a period in between moving into the second and selling the first, if you like—and as was also mentioned, it includes those properties that are bought by residential landlords, which I'm sure would be something that many of us would be very supportive of. And, equally, the data doesn't show the land that churns the other way, so those properties that were previously buy-to-lets, which are now being bought as main properties as well. But when we have that meeting, I think it would be an opportunity for us to discuss, in more depth, to what extent we can get better data, really, in order for us to understand what's happening behind those figures. But I look forward to that conversation.

Local Procurement

Dai Lloyd AC: 6. What assessment has the Minister made of the level of local procurement by public bodies in South Wales West? OQ55752

Rebecca Evans AC: South Wales West procurement spend, at local authority level, in 2018-19 was £588 million with 61 per cent spent in Wales. We are working, with colleagues, to deliver national procurement frameworks regionally and to generate greater economic and well-being outcomes. The foundational economy programme is also working to identify opportunities for localising procurement expenditure.

Dai Lloyd AC: Thank you for that, Minister. Now, data held for the latest full financial year of 2018-19 show that Wales-based suppliers won only 55 per cent of total local authority and NHS contracts in Wales. In other words, 45 per cent of contract spend was lost outside of Wales. We know that Scotland retains around 70 per of its contracts within its borders. We also know that supporting local companies by encouraging them to tender and by awarding them public sector contracts can have a significant impact on the local economy and create jobs. Do you, therefore, accept that the Welsh Government needs to do more by working with bodies such as Swansea council and Swansea bay health board to ensure that more public contracts are awarded to local companies?

Rebecca Evans AC: I'm absolutely keen to work with Swansea council and with the health board to see what more we can do in order to ensure that local companies win those contracts. The data that I referred to in my response, of course, only referred to local authorities, because other public sector organisations, such as health boards and others, don't necessarily reside in a single area, so we haven't been able to include them in the analysis. So, it's worth just bearing that in mind as a bit of a health warning for that data.
But I absolutely agree that there is more that we can do, and we can do that through our approach on the foundational economy programme. We've engaged the Centre for Local Economic Strategies to work with clusters of public services boards across Wales to identify opportunities for localising procurement expenditure. That's really important and exciting work, which I think has the opportunity to be quite a game changer there.
We also, of course, have the foundational economy challenge fund, and Swansea council is delivering one of those projects, which aims to increase the proportion of construction contracts that are won by local contractors here in the area. So, again, that's an important piece of work, and the learning that we have from that we can spread across Wales as well. And I think that the pandemic has provided us with huge opportunities to support and engage with local businesses in a way that we haven't been able to support them before and engage with them before. There are some excellent examples of how local engineering firms and others are changing the way that they produce things in order to help with the effort by moving into production of PPE and so on. That's been fantastic in terms of supporting local business but also giving that certainty to other public services in terms of that supply chain of important goods during the pandemic.

Financial Support as a result of Coronavirus Restrictions

Darren Millar AC: 7. Will the Minister make a statement on the financial support available for those affected by local coronavirus restrictions? OQ55719

Rebecca Evans AC: The Welsh Government has introduced a range of measures to support communities across Wales, including almost £300 million that has now been made available to support businesses during the firebreak. We are particularly focused on supporting businesses and working with local authorities to address the needs of people in Wales.

Darren Millar AC: Thank you for that answer, Minister. It's not just businesses that have borne the brunt of the restrictions that have been imposed across Wales in recent months. We know that the national health service has seen waiting times absolutely balloon in recent months, and of course, in north Wales in particular, we already had the worst waiting times in the country. Can I ask you what specific support you're going to make available from the Welsh Government's budget to support the NHS to deal with this huge backlog of patients waiting for appointments and treatments? And specifically, will you support the Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board with any strategy that it brings forward in order to eradicate those waiting lists and get back on top of them?

Rebecca Evans AC: Thank you for raising this important issue. As Darren Millar will know, the Welsh Government has recently announced a stabilisation package for the NHS here in Wales, and that's an £800 million package of support that should allow health boards and others across Wales to be able to get to that point at the end of the financial year where they've been able to meet all of those additional pressures put on them by COVID, but also stabilise the other parts of the NHS, which, of course, are so important as well. So, that funding is there. I provided a block of funding rather than having to have a situation where the health Minister had to keep coming to individual meetings to discuss different parts of the health service. I felt that a significant injection of funding to the health department was the best way to go in terms of giving him the ability then to pass on that funding and certainty more quickly. Because I think one of the things that we always try to do during this pandemic is provide funding as quickly as we can, and I felt that that was the appropriate way to go forward. I have been having some discussions in my regular bilateral meetings with the Minister for health in terms of support for Betsi Cadwaladr and those discussions are currently ongoing.

Funding Flood Recovery

Mick Antoniw AC: 8. What consideration has the Minister given to funding flood recovery in Wales when allocating the Welsh Government's budget? OQ55745

Rebecca Evans AC: Preventing and addressing flooding is a priority for this Government. Alongside the funding provided following the devastating February flooding, by the end of this Senedd term, we will have invested £390 million in flood and coastal erosion risk management, helping to protect over 47,000 properties in Wales.

Mick Antoniw AC: Minister, the Welsh Government funding has been very welcome, in particular the 100 per cent funding of preparatory work for the flood damage from the February flooding. Two weeks ago, I asked about the promise that was made by the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State for Wales that money would be passported through to the Welsh Government for the flood damage that occurred. The Rhondda Cynon Taf assessment is around £70 million, and of course there is the issue of the funding of the work that needs to be done in terms of stabilisation and work on coal tips. Minister, have you had any indication yet from the UK Government that that money that was promised will be coming to enable Rhondda Cynon Taf to carry out the infrastructure repairs that are so desperately needed?

Rebecca Evans AC: Thank you to Mick Antoniw for that question and also for the useful meetings that we've had in order to hear very much from the ground in terms of the support that the local authority needs and that communities need in order to recover properly and move forward after the devastating floods. We have provided some early funding and early certainty to local authorities to allow them to get on with the work, because we know that there are safety issues involved. But in terms of the way in which the UK Government's been able to play its part, it's been quite lamentable thus far, given the fact that the Prime Minister made such a strong promise that funding would be passported to Wales as a result of the flooding and the need to address it. We haven't yet seen a penny of it. We've seen a commitment for a small amount of funding, but as Mick Antoniw says, the overall funding both in terms of addressing the local damage but also the work that needs to be undertaken over a long period on coal tips in Wales runs into the hundreds of millions of pounds. I have had a recent letter from the Chief Secretary to the Treasury suggesting a further conversation on that, and I look forward to it, but I think that the scale of the issue here is one where the UK Government really does need to fulfil its promise, which the Prime Minister made, and also recognise that in terms of the coal tips, much of this predates devolution as well. The Coal Authority has a particular and specific role to play, I think, in addressing these issues.

And finally, question 9, Suzy Davies.

Bill Financial Statements

Suzy Davies AC: 9. Will the Minister make a statement on how financial statements accompanying new Bills compare to the actual realised costs? OQ55760

Rebecca Evans AC: The Welsh Government publishes a table showing the implementation costs of enacted legislation alongside the draft budget. The table includes an explanation if costs have changed significantly from the regulatory impact assessment estimates. Guidance states that, where feasible, the actual cost of legislation should be considered as part of the post-implementation review.

Suzy Davies AC: Thank you very much for that information, because we don't get a huge amount of time for post-legislative scrutiny here in this Senedd, and tracking the ongoing costs attributable to a piece of legislation can be very difficult, particularly at the moment when we get no chance for pre-legislative scrutiny of the cost of regulations. Can you confirm for how long consequent costs attract after various parts of the statutes and regulations come into force? And when do you plan to publish a comprehensive statement on the costs of the coronavirus Act and the COVID regulations brought in beneath it?

Rebecca Evans AC: Thank you for raising that particular question. In terms of when we publish that detail, we publish detail alongside the draft budget every year in terms of legislation that is being enacted. We would normally stop providing that information once the Act has been implemented, because then the costs of that and delivering that just become business-as-usual costs and are absorbed either by the departments or have some additional particular funding attached to them. So, that's the normal way in which we would provide the detail of that. I'm always keen to explore what more we can do in terms of transparency and providing the information that people need, both before Bills are voted on, but then also afterwards as well. So, yes, I'd be more than happy to have that discussion with Suzy if there are some particular ideas that she has or some particular concerns that she'd like to discuss in further detail, because as I say, transparency is really important in helping people to understand what the cost has been of the Bills that we've enacted.

Thank you, finance Minister.

2. Questions to the Minister for Education

The next item is questions to the Minister for Education and the first question is from Hefin David.

COVID-19 and Schools

Hefin David AC: 1. Will the Minister provide an update on the actions expected of schools to limit the risk of spreading COVID-19 infections? OQ55750

Kirsty Williams AC: The operational guidance clearly sets out the actions that need to be taken by schools and settings in order to limit the risk of spreading COVID-19. It is crucial that staff and pupils who are showing any symptoms of COVID-19 do not attend school and book a test.

Hefin David AC: Two things related to that. First of all, I've had questions from parents asking for justification for the fact that year 9 onwards won't be in school during the lockdown the week after half term. Can you just reiterate the reasons for that and why that's taking place? And associated with it, the advice to schools is to keep classrooms ventilated. A number of parents—and in fact, teachers—have come to me and said that ventilated classrooms are very, very cold. It's a concern that's been raised in Caerphilly, but I've also seen it elsewhere. I've written to Caerphilly council and they say they're providing advice to schools, but is it possible that the Welsh Government also provides advice that ventilation doesn't necessarilyalso mean freezing classrooms, which is quite important?

Kirsty Williams AC: Schools and settings should ensure that there is an adequate level of ventilation, and Welsh Government has given operational guidance to schools in that regard. In terms of the implications of the firebreak for education, I have been very clear since this summer that the best way in which we can minimise disruption to our children's education is to keep community levels of transmission of COVID-19 as low as possible. As a Government, we recognise a firebreak is essential if we are to reduce levels of transmission and reduce the R rate. I appreciate that for those parents and learners in year 9 and above, this is an extremely difficult time, but these year groups have the ability to undertake self-directed learning more easily than other parts of the cohort, and they will be supported in doing so for the week by their teachers, who will be in the classroom.

Laura Anne Jones. Yes, there you go.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Diolch, Llywydd. The unmuting took a while, sorry. Minister, our schools, as you know, are doing an excellent job, and work very hard to ensure that the schools are COVID safe for pupils and teachers alike. However, there does seem to be a chink in the armour to me, at drop-off and pick-up. Although there are great one-way systems, phased collections, all those great things happening, parents and guardians are still not, on the whole, social distancing and wearing masks. Do you think there's a bit more that you and the Welsh Government can do in tackling this? It looks to have the potential to undo all the good work being done by the school, particularly as we're looking to stop gatherings in this firebreak. Thank you.

Kirsty Williams AC: First of all, can I thank you, Laura, for your recognition of the hard work, on behalf of school leaders and teachers, to make our schools and our colleges as COVID secure as they possibly can be? But, you are absolutely right; parents can greatly enhance those efforts by ensuring that they follow all relevant advice when they are bringing their children to and from school, and when they are organising other activities for their children. You are correct; we have had concerns expressed to us about families gathering at the school gate and not doing so in a socially distanced way, or perhaps families overseeing children's activities, and, again, families forgetting to do that in a socially distanced way from other mums, dads, carers and grandparents. The Welsh Government will use this time to review all of our communications, to get those strong messages out to parents and carers that they too have a crucial role to play in ensuring that we can minimise disruption to their children's education, and that one of the easy ways they can do that is remembering to remain socially distanced from other parents at the beginning and at the end of school days.

Outdoor Education Centres

Russell George AC: 2. Will the Minister make a statement on the opening of outdoor education centres during the COVID-19 pandemic? OQ55739

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you, Russell. I am sympathetic to the challenge faced by outdoor education centres due to the pandemic. Our current guidance advises against domestic residential school trips, but it does allow for domestic non-residential day trips. This guidance is kept under review and updates will be informed by the latest medical and scientific advice.

Russell George AC: Thank you, Minister, for your answer, and I'm grateful that you are sympathetic, as you've outlined. Two outdoor centres, as it happens, have been in touch with me, based in Powys in my own constituency; I know, Minister, you'll have similar outdoor centres in your own constituency in Powys as well. They are keen that Welsh Government do provide guidance that will allow them to reopen on the same basis as schools, to prevent them from facing imminent ruin. I'd suggest that outdoor educational centres provide huge benefits in terms of personal development, education and physical and mental health. I'm aware that Tim Farron MP is campaigning for a change in the UK Government current guidance, which prevents overnight educational visits at outdoor educational centres, and I'm very much campaigning for the same here in Wales. So, can I ask you, Minister, whether you will be able to discuss with colleagues and take some action to allow them to reopen, with appropriate guidance to follow, following, of course, the current lockdown period, which ends at the beginning of November?

Kirsty Williams AC: Russell, you're correct—outdoor education can bring huge benefits to children and young people, and, as you said, in a range of developing skills and knowledge. At this time, day trips to such residential centres can indeed go ahead, and as long as schools do that in a risk-assessed way, there is no reason why all of those activities have to stop. But at this stage, scientific advice is very clear that residential trips are not appropriate. But as I said in my initial answer to you, we will continue to keep that under review, and we do not want to limit those residential trips for a moment longer than they need to be, given the benefits to children that you have outlined.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Minister, thank you for that assurance that you do not want to keep these closed for residential visits for a minute more than is necessary, and that, once safe, we will get back to having residential visits. She will know that, for many of us, outdoor education centres were the first time that we would have been immersed in an outdoor environment, and learnt through skills and confidence and self-esteem all the benefits that come from that. So, could I ask her, firstly, will she, along with other Cabinet colleagues, continue to work with people like the Institute of Outdoor Learning and the Outdoor Alliance in Wales to put in place those plans for when we can get back to residential outdoor learning? But, secondly, will she also with Cabinet colleagues work with UK Government to amend the current job support schemes they have to extend their reach to the outdoor learning environment? At the moment, they're not able to apply for that support, and we need to get them through these current constraints, in order to get to rebuilding after we've got through this crisis.

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you, Huw. I'm sure many people will have shared your experience—that the ability to go on a residential trip was the first opportunity to spend extended time in the natural environment. And I know that that is something that is very much valued by many schools in parts of Wales where access to the outdoors is perhaps more limited, to be able to take children out to areas—such as Russell George's constituency, and indeed to Brecon and Radnorshire—to give them that experience and, hopefully, a lifelong love and interest of spending time in the outdoors.
As I said, we're keeping this issue constantly under review. My officials met as recently as 14 October with Public Health Wales, to discuss the appropriateness of current advice. Unfortunately, at this time, residential trips are not recommended, but as soon as we are able to do so, then clearly we will want to change that.
With regard to discussions for economic support, recognising not only the importance for children of outdoor education, but actually they are valuable employers in their own right in rural communities, then such centres are able to look to support from the economic resilience fund that the Welsh Government has made available. But I will certainly make the representations that you have asked for this afternoon, and I will write back to the Member.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Siân Gwenllian.

Siân Gwenllian AC: Thank you, Llywydd. May I begin with the financial situation of our universities as a result of the health crisis? I'm aware that there is support being provided by the investment and resilience fund for higher education. It appears that the applications need to be in by the last day of this month, which is within the firebreak period. And, of course, universities will have additional requirements as a result of the firebreak lockdown, which begins very soon, particularly with regard to assistance with track and trace and emotional and mental well-being.
The support is being divided between assistance to individual universities and an allocation for co-operative investment. Under the new circumstances, will you think again about extending the time available to universities to make their applications? But also, will you think about changing the way that this funding is allocated, so that you amend the financial allocation process to ensure that the funding is prioritised for that urgent assistance to individual universities, rather than for the collaborative investment?

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you for that question. We have indeed made additional resources available to the higher education sector, in additional moneys to the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales and a remit letter to HEFCW to support the distribution and the prioritisation of those resources.
The Member raises the issue of timescales—that is a matter for HEFCW. What I do know from universities is that they are as anxious as possible to see that money into their accounts, rather than in the accounts of HEFCW. So, there is a balance to be struck, is there not, of bringing that application process to a close and allocating that money, rather than extending the application process?
With regard to asking universities to work together, there is a huge appetite amongst the higher education sector here in Wales, which is based on values of co-operation rather than competition, to work together to support each other during this time. That is particularly important when being able to resource a blended learning approach and support each other in the provision of bilingual opportunities for blended learning. So, I wouldn't want to curtail the ability of Welsh universities, who see the value in co-operating to help one another to get through this time, to be lost.
Clearly, the situation is changing all the time. I'm very pleased that in even during the firebreak universities will be able to continue to provide a blended learning approach with in-person teaching as well as remote learning. But, clearly, we meet regularly with both HEFCW and the universities and the National Union of Students Wales to discuss what additional support universities and higher education and students may need during this time, as we enter into this very uncertain period of the winter.

Siân Gwenllian AC: I welcome your decision to extend your free school meals scheme to include school holidays until the spring of next year, and, also, your decision to extend the free-school-meals scheme to include additional pupils, particularly those from low income families. Will you consider extending it further still to include families who receive universal credit, the basic provision, or, even better still, to all pupils and children in Wales, given how difficult it is for families to cope at the present time, and how important it is for children to receive nutritious food?

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you, Siân. Wales, back in the spring of this year, was the first part of the United Kingdom to announce continued support for families entitled to free school meals during school holidays, and I am very pleased to have been able to work with the finance Minister to obtain an additional £11 million, which will ensure that children who are entitled to free school meals will continue to receive that support during this half term, during the Christmas holiday, the February half term and, indeed, the Easter holidays. We keep under review our range of support for families who find themselves in financial difficulties at that time. We know that schools are seeing an increase in the number of children who are now eligible, sadly, for free school meals, which is adding additional pressure to budgets. But we are determined not to forget those children for whom school is about so much more than just learning, and to ensure that those families have some certainty with regard to support for their children during what is, as I said, a very uncertain time.

Siân Gwenllian AC: I am pleased that you're keeping the situation under continuous review. That is vital, isn't it?
Now, turning to another issue, to conclude, in July it was announced that 600 additional teachers would be recruited to schools and 300 teaching assistants for the current school year. I would like an update on this, and perhaps there isn't sufficient time this afternoon for you to give that update, but will you give us a full statement, in due course, on this, and explain to us what monitoring work and evaluation work the Welsh Government is undertaking with regard to this expenditure on the additional teachers and the additional teaching assistants, and an explanation of how this will lead to decreasing the classroom sizes in schools?

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you, Siân. You're correct to say that we have allocated in excess of £29 million to support schools to address the learning loss that has already happened in our children's education. That means schools can indeed look to recruit additional teachers, teaching assistants, or indeed any other professional who they feel would be appropriate to work with their cohort of children. That could be youth workers, mentors, and we have provided guidance, alongside the financial resources, to make that happen, and I will be more than happy to be able to give Members an update about how those resources have been spent in school.
The Member also talks about class sizes. Despite the immense pressure on Government budgets at this time, we have been able to maintain our funding for our class size reduction budget as well. But the Member is right and proper to ask for an update on the use of the £29 million, and I will be happy to give that once details are available.

Conservative spokesperson, Suzy Davies.

Suzy Davies AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Good afternoon, Minister. Why did Welsh Government ignore the wishes of all 22 local authority leaders to keep secondary schools fully open during the forthcoming lockdown?

Kirsty Williams AC: Well, Suzy, a range of views have to be taken into consideration at this time. As I said in answer to Hefin David, we know that keeping community levels of transmission of COVID-19 low is the best thing that we can all do to minimise disruption to education. The firebreak is essential if we are to slow the rates of infection and bring R down. In doing so, we will see less disruption in our schools, from teachers who are perhaps contracting the virus and having to self-isolate, children who themselves are catching the virus and having to self-isolate, and the knock-on effect that has to other children within their bubble.
The contribution of schools opening to R was well known and is inevitable. The Government has published its technical advice group paper, and it was felt that by asking those pupils in years 9 and above to study from home for a week, given the fact that they are more able to do that, allowed us to make sure that the firebreak is successful, and everybody's sacrifices can make a difference.

Suzy Davies AC: Well, Minister, the news has been full of the negotiation between the Prime Minister and city region mayors, and the different deals on whether gyms, for example, should be kept open. But when the Welsh Local Government Association leaders speak as one, with one voice, on something as important as our schools, it seems that Welsh Government is perfectly content to instruct and not to listen. And I hope that the implication isn't that those leaders haven't given due consideration to the technical advice group advice, and I hope that some of the accusations levelled at Welsh Conservatives yesterday, simply for taking a different view from Welsh Government, don't attach to those leaders for also having a different view.
Minister, we all know what the children's commissioner has had to say about further reducing children and young people's access to an experience of education that they have a right to expect, with particularly serious consequences for poorer children and those in care. The age of those children isn't necessarily the determinant of how well they can learn at home. We know what some parents and young people are saying about the quality of some of the blended learning, and the work that they get sent home, and the existence of Google classrooms doesn't necessarily mean anyone attending is learning what they need do. We also know that secondary schools are now geared up to teach mainly in school, not to find out from leaked letters that expectations are going to change without any decent lead-in time. What we don't know, with all this chopping and changing, is how Welsh Government is supporting the rapidly deteriorating mental health of our teachers and lecturers. Can you tell us, please?

Kirsty Williams AC: Well, let me be absolutely clear: we have, even in this most difficult and serious of circumstances, been able to ensure that primary schoolchildren, children in our special educational needs schools, pupils in education other than at schools and in specialist centres within mainstream schools will be able to attend school in person after the break.I appreciate that this is a worrying time for all of those students who have been asked to stay at home for that week, but they will be supported in their learning by staff who will be indeed in school to be able to deliver that online learning. And before the Member is quick to condemn the quality of that, I can assure her that Estyn, regional consortia, local education authorities and schools themselves have been working very, very hard to put contingency plans in place to support distance learning.
I regret that there is any further disruption to education for children here in Wales. Unfortunately, COVID-19 doesn't care about that. As I said, the best way in which we can minimise disruption to schools is to keep community transmission levels low. As we have seen community transmission levels rise, we have seen growing numbers of children in our classrooms who have had to self-isolate. If we are to get back to a more even keel and to lessen that disruption to individual classes and teachers and schools, we have to bring the R number down and that is what the firebreak is intending to do.

Suzy Davies AC: Thank you for that, Minister. Obviously, the quality of work that's either being given to young people to take home or that they're getting remotely, is very variable. You've admitted this in the past and it's certainly not a reflection on the hard work that teachers are putting in, which is why I asked you what Welsh Government is doing to support the mental health of our teachers, particularly as over half of them are now saying that their mental health has been impacted, and the main reason for that is late arrival of new guidance on any changes that they're expected to deal with. I think the combination of education reforms and the disruption of teaching and learning due to COVID have placed a very, very visible strain on practitioners in the sector, which was already struggling with years of difficult funding arrangements and low uptake of opportunities. How can we all help to make sure that those considering teaching as a career haven't been put off by all of this?

Kirsty Williams AC: Forgive me, Suzy, you did ask a very direct question and it is only right that that is answered. This Government has made additional financial resources available specifically to support mental health and well-being during this crisis. And, quite rightly, whilst the majority of that resource has been made available to support children and young people, an element of that resource has been made available to support the mental health and well-being of staff and school leaders.
I appreciate that additional stress occurs when situations change, but I'm sure the Member would understand that we are dealing with a fast-paced and rapidly changing situation. Cases and statistics and infection levels can change very rapidly, and whilst it is almost always my intention to give as much notice as possible, sometimes governments find themselves in a position of having to act very quickly.
With regard to initial teacher education, I am pleased to say that we have seen a strong level of recruitment into ITE programmes this year. We will continue to work with the Education Workforce Council in Wales to promote teaching as a career, and, goodness me, if ever there was a time for an individual who wants to make a difference to the lives of children and young people in Wales, and feel that they want to make a contribution, then helping us to recover in education from the impact of COVID-19 now would be a fantastic time to think about and join the profession.

Social Distancing in Schools

David Melding AC: 3. What steps are being taken to ensure that schools are adhering to social distancing guidelines? OQ55742

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you, David. The operational guidance for schools sets out the control measures that need to be put in place to minimise the risk of transmission, including social distancing. Local authorities continue to work with their schools to ensure that all measures are put in place as far as possible.

David Melding AC: Minister, we know that social distancing is our best defence in stopping transmission. Hygiene practice is also very important, but social distancing is really crucial. I think that we should be grateful to the professionalism of our teaching staff and the whole staff in complimenting schools, because we have not had the sort of transmission events that we've seen in higher education. Now, I realise that they are not comparable directly, but they are the same in that there are lots of young people gathering together. And, I think that it is really important that we maintain these best practices, and are thankful to all of the staff that have allowed us to maintain attendance rates in our schools in the high 80s. Obviously, we want to do even better than that to ensure that our young people get as full an education as possible.

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you, David, for recognising the huge amount of effort that has gone into our school settings to make them as COVID secure as possible. Like you, what we need to do is continually keep under review our support and guidance available to schools in the light of experience. There are things that we can learn from this first half-term of the new academic year—hence, issuing new guidance last week—in light of the experiences that we have. But, overall, we have seen strong levels of adherence to social distancing in our schools, for which I am very, very grateful.
What's really important, as we head into half-term, is that young people remind themselves of the need to continue to social distance, not to gather in each other's homes over half-term, and to continue to follow the rules, because that gives us the best chance of minimising disruption to education going forward.

Rhianon Passmore AC: Minister, the operational guidance for schoolsand settings for the autumn term—version 3, published by the Welsh Government—was updated two days ago. This guidance states that local authorities should communicate the control measures to schools and settings, and that schools and settings should work with staff, parents, carers and learners so that the revised arrangements will work in practice. Minister, how will the Welsh Government seek to ensure that there is a consistency of approach across schools in Islwyn, and how will the Welsh Government be kept updated by Caerphilly county borough on the measures adopted across the authority and across the academic year 2020-21?

Kirsty Williams AC: Well, we are in regular contact with local authorities. We are aware that, sometimes, there are differences in the approach taken by local authorities in supporting their schools. That's why Estyn is currently doing a piece of work to identify good practice in local authorities supporting individual settings to adhere to rules and to support education during this time.
We, as a Welsh Government, will look to use all of our platforms to reinforce those messages with parents, because they, too, have a crucial role to play in decisions that they are making about their lives, and how they support their children to make good decisions—especially older children, and how they make good decisions when they are outside school—to ensure that we can minimise disruption and bear down on community transmission rates.

The 2020 Summer Examination Results

David Rees AC: 4. Will the Minister confirm when the review into the awarding of examination results in summer 2020 will be published? OQ55757

Kirsty Williams AC: The independent panel that are reviewing arrangements for the awarding of grades from the 2020 summer exam series, and exploring considerations for 2021, will publish their interim report by the end of this month and their final report in December.

David Rees AC: Thank you for that answer, Minister. I have been approached by teachers who are very concerned about what will happen for the examinations in the summer of 2021. They need to be aware of what assessments pupils will be taking so that they can prepare pupils and they can prepare their work. And, if it is going to be an internally moderated type of approach, they also need to understand the extra work that that will require. So, while you indicate that the interim report will be published by the end of this month, and the final report by December, to be blunt, December is too late for some of the decisions and some of the actions that need to be taken. Will you be making a decision sooner than that to identify when, or whether, examinations will be going ahead in July 2021, and if not, what will be replacing them?

Kirsty Williams AC: It is my intention to make a statement in this regard, David, in the week beginning 9 November.

Schools in Pembrokeshire

Paul Davies AC: 5. Will the Minister outline the Welsh Government's immediate priorities for schools in Pembrokeshire? OQ55718

Kirsty Williams AC: My immediate priorities for schools in Pembrokeshire and, indeed, across Wales, is to provide the best possible learning experience for pupils, drawing on the learning guidance Welsh Government published in July, while keeping children, young people and staff safe.

Paul Davies AC: Thank you for that response, Minister. Now, as you know, supply teachers can play a key role in supporting our schools, and I'm sure that supporting those professionals is also a priority of yours. Now, I've received correspondence from local supply teachers who are deeply worried that many are not being paid the basic recommended minimum rate, as outlined in the supply teaching framework. As you know from my previous representations to you on this matter, supply staff have had a really tough time since the COVID-19 crisis. Many have been without any work, and furlough has been hard to work out or apply for due to the transient nature of their incomes. Therefore, can you tell us what steps the Welsh Government is taking to ensure the supply teaching framework is enforceable and that supply teachers are being paid adequately? And can you also tell us what the Welsh Government and local education authorities are doing to monitor this issue and ensure that supply staff are treated fairly, not only across Pembrokeshire, but, indeed, across the whole of Wales?

Kirsty Williams AC: Yes, indeed. All those supply teaching agencies that are on the framework need to abide by the conditions of that framework, which seeks to protect the interests of supply teachers. If you, Paul, or indeed if any Member has evidence where that is not the case, then I can assure you that will be pursued by my officials and by members of staff in the National Procurement Service. Indeed, recently, such a case was brought to our attention, and that was immediately dealt with. In that case, the offer of work had been made directly by a school, and conversations were had to remind those people involved of their requirements to treat and pay supply staff securely. So, Paul, if you have constituents that are not in that position, please do bring them to my attention and I will assure you action will be taken.

Question 6, Gareth Bennett.

Gareth Bennett AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I was interested in the Minister's reply just now—

You do need to ask the question.

Gareth Bennett AC: I apologise; it's been a while.

Education in South Wales Central

Gareth Bennett AC: 6. Will the Minister make a statement on the provision of education in South Wales Central? OQ55746

Kirsty Williams AC: I would be delighted to. Local authorities have a statutory duty to maintain schools in their area. In South Wales Central, the Central South Consortium provides school improvement support to the 277 schools, the two special schools and the four pupil referral units that it covers.

Gareth Bennett AC: Thank you, Minister. In schools in England, the UK Government's intention is to go ahead with most exams next summer. Now, I'm aware from what the Minister just said in response to David Rees that she's making a statement on 9 November, and I realise she will not want to pre-empt this. Notwithstanding that, exams are the fairest and most transparent way to assess the ability of schoolpupils, and when they were cancelled last summer and we had replacement grades instead, there was a fiasco. Most pupils and students are saying that they want exams to proceed as they don't want a grade allocated by a teacher or generated by an algorithm. I know we are having this statement in a couple of weeks' time, but could the Minister assure us that she is doing all she can to ensure that school exams do take place in Wales next summer?

Kirsty Williams AC: Well, the Member is right—examinations are an important and mainstream part of how we run our education system in Wales, but I am sure the Member will also agree that these are extraordinary times, and what an examination system cannot do is solve the issue on its own of the extreme disruption that there has been to children's education. Indeed, if the Member was to look at his own region, he would be aware that there are some children who, through no fault of their own but because they are in a bubble with a child who has contracted COVID-19, have had their education disrupted. How we find a system—an examination system—that treats that child as fairly as a child who has had no further disruption to their education because they are fortunate enough to be in a cohort that has not been sent home from school, I'm sure he would agree, is a challenge indeed. That's why I have asked the independent review to look at the situation, and he will have seen from Qualifications Wales, only this morning, that they too recognise that the disruption to education is considerable. England have made their decision; Scotland have made a different one. I will make a decision that I believe is in the best interests of Welsh learners and is fair to this particular cohort of children who, again, in the words of Qualifications Wales, have suffered more disruption and are more challenged—this cohort is—than even that of last year, and we need to be fair to them.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you, Minister, for that response to the opening question. Obviously, with the national lockdown that's coming in as of Friday evening, years 9 and above have been ordered to stay at home for one week of the school calendar. Can you point me to the scientific evidence that says that this is a sensible course of action for years 9 and above, or is it, as you said in your response to Suzy Davies, a sacrifice that we have to make to, obviously, suppress the virus?

Kirsty Williams AC: You'll be aware of evidence contained within the TAC paper that talks about the contribution to reducing R from closing schools in their entirety and closing secondary schools in particular. Throughout this pandemic, I have tried to minimise the disruption to children and maximise education. It is very worrying for those children in years 9 and above that this decision has been reached, but, as I said in answer to earlier questions, this part of the cohort are best placed to be able to engage in self-directed and distanced learning. And I hope that, by suppressing the virus across Wales and driving down community rates of transmission, that will limit the amount of disruption to education as we head towards the end of this term.

School Years Self-isolating

Suzy Davies AC: 7. Will the Minister make a statement on the changes in the new guidance regarding full school years being sent home to self-isolate? OQ55758

Kirsty Williams AC: Additional guidance has been published in collaboration with Public Health Wales and test, trace, protect on the role of contact tracing when a positive COVID-19 case is identified in an education setting. This includes the identification of close contacts to limit, where possible, the number of pupils and staff who are asked to self-isolate as the result of a positive case.

Suzy Davies AC: Thank you. I don't underestimate the task for secondary school heads, in particular, of reconfiguring school layouts, timetables and attendance times in order to comply with the rules on social distancing and hygiene. But I don't think there can be any justification for hundreds of pupils being sent home to self-isolate just because one individual has tested positive. Five hundred and fifty three children were sent home from just two schools in Cardiff a week ago, and both of these where there was just one case. I don't think that's proportionate. Why are heads still in the position where they feel that they have no choice but to send so many pupils home? And do they need the protection of the law to give them the confidence to isolate smaller numbers?

Kirsty Williams AC: Well, Suzy, you have just outlined beautifully the disruption that is happening on a daily basis, in some parts of Wales, to children's education.In the light of experience of this first half term, we have worked with TTP teams and health protection teams to reflect on the feedback given by headteachers to develop new guidance so that we can reduce the number of pupils and staff who are having to self-isolate. As you identified, one way in which we are looking to do this is by making sure that we can focus on schools having the processes in place to capture information so that we can have more confidence around what constitutes a close contact and to work with those schools to identify—perhaps, in the first instance, a bubble is sent home, but then to work as quickly as possible, following the bubble being sent home, to identify the close contacts within that particular group and then bring more of those children back into school within those 14 days of self-isolation.
So, you're right: we need to give support and confidence to headteachers to make these decisions. And, of course, headteachers need to work with us to have processes in place so that they can more easily and readily identify those children who will have had a close contact with a positive case, rather than asking entire year groups, or very large bubbles, to miss school.

Digital Education Services

Joyce Watson AC: 8. How will the Welsh Goverment support digital education services this academic year? OQ55754

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you very much, Joyce, for that important question. Clearly, digital education services have come to the fore during the crisis, and we will continue to work with individual schools and local educational authorities to provide the digital resources children need.

Joyce Watson AC: I thank you for that answer, and the Welsh Government has made keeping children in schools one of its top priorities. And reflecting on the first wave of the pandemic, the Education Policy Institute commended Wales for leading the way in the UK in terms of providing IT and online learning and for supporting families eligible for free school meals in particular. But, sadly, disruption to face-to-face teaching and blended learning could be a feature of education for the foreseeable future, so we can't rest on our laurels. So, by your assessment, Minister, what additional support and resource will schools, teachers and familiesneed to ensure no pupil is left behind?

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you, Joyce, and thank you for the recognition of the excellent partnership working between my department and local education authorities that allowed for the very swift distribution of many thousands of pieces of kit and equipment and Mi-Fi devices in the first phase of the pandemic. We continue to work with local education authorities to ensure that planned tech spend is getting kit into schools so that it can be distributed and we can continue to ensure that no child doesn't have the IT resources or connectivity that they need to allow them to participate in distance and blended learning, and to make sure that staff themselves have the requisite kit so that they can use that if they are required to work off school premises.

And finally, Angela Burns.

Angela Burns AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, I just listened to your response to Joyce Watson very, very carefully, and the particular issue I want to raise is the children who will be, or the students who will be, scheduled to take exams next year. Quite a few parents have raised concerns with me that their children are the ones that they feel should be—forgive me for using the word 'prioritised', but, because of the exam element, really need to make sure they have the right kit, and not only the right kit, but actually have the ability to access not just the blended learning, but, more importantly, the live learning. Parents are saying to me that they didn't have some of those opportunities during the first coronavirus wave. So, when you do publish your decision on the examinations later on this term, will you also perhaps give consideration to what reassurance you can offer the parents who are specifically concerned about their children who are facing those exams?

Kirsty Williams AC: Yes, of course. I can give you absolute assurance, Angela, that we will, in coming to a conclusion as to the summer series for 2021, be absolutely mindful of the needs of those learners for whom some have had even more disruption than others to their learning, and how we come up with a system that is fair to all learners that recognises the disproportionate impact that COVID may have had, through no fault of teachers. Because, even with extra kit and IT, the ability of a child to engage in some of that sometimes can be hampered by other issues at home. So, I can absolutely give you that assurance that learner interest will be at the forefront of my mind, and recognising the significant disruption that those children have had through no fault of their own.

I thank the Minister.

3. Questions to the Senedd Commission

The next item is questions to the Senedd Commission, and the first question is to be answered by Commissioner Joyce Watson and to be asked by Helen Mary Jones.

Staff Working from Home

Helen Mary Jones AC: 1. How does the Commission support staff working from home during the coronavirus pandemic? OQ55729

David Melding AC: 6. What measures are in place to support Commission staff working from home during the pandemic? OQ55741

Joyce Watson AC: I thank you for that question. The measures provided to Commission staff are extensive and include practical support in the form of ICT and other hardware and home office adaptations, including desks and chairs; health, safety and emotional support, ranging from display screen equipment assessments and working from home guidance through to support and access to well-being resources. There's flexibility around working practices to support those staff with caring responsibilities, and ongoing and regular two-way communication. Since September, identified individuals struggling with well-being or who have difficulty with their home environment can attend the workplace, and all these arrangements are kept under review as the circumstances change.

Helen Mary Jones AC: I'm very grateful to the Commissioner for her answer. I have to say that that is very reassuring. I'd specifically like to ask whether those criteria that enable some staff to come into the workplace include circumstances where people may be at home with very small children and may find it very stressful to be working from home. So, are those kinds of family circumstances included in the kind of special circumstances under which a member of staff might be allowed to work in the workplace?

Joyce Watson AC: Thank you for that. Of course, every home has a different environment, and all individuals, of course, have different challenges. And, as I said in my first answer, it is the case that the communication lines are kept open, and there are many communications. We do have the business continuity surveys—two well-being pulse surveys have allowed us to explore and respond to the practical, as well as emotional and physical well-being, to good effect. We do meet with the trade unions twice weekly, with regular interaction with staff networks. And, of course, we as employers, the Assembly Members, also have a duty to our staff. So, there have been things put in place, where it's safe to do so, for staff to enter the workplace when that's possible. Of course, it won't be so easily possible in the lockdown period, where the advice is clearly to work from home.

Question 1 has been grouped with question6, so David Melding to ask his supplementary. David Melding.

David Melding AC: Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. Commissioner, can I put on record my own thanks—and I'm sure I speak for all Members of this Senedd—for the outstanding support we get from the Commission staff, and, of course, we realise that much of that support is coming via our own Zooming and contacts. But the level of professionalism that's been maintained is really quite extraordinary. But we obviously see that staff are often now in a much more isolated position than they would be in the usual work environment, and I think we do need to be reassured that the normal methods, both informal and formal, of supervision, appraisal and support are present so that staff have those lines of communication should they be feeling either direct strain through their duties, or just the general social situation we're all in at this extraordinary time in our history.

Joyce Watson AC: You're absolutely right, David. Keeping communication lines open—because we all are here today, as you've just said, quite rightly, because other staff are supporting that. So, there are regular team meetings and individual meetings and social activity that are ongoing, and some of those are weekly communications. There are several all-staff meetings, there are question and answer sessions, there are written and video blogs on sustaining business, working at home and our planning work to ensure staff feel connected with each other, because isolation is obviously a big challenge to many, many people. That's done through engagement with the trade unions and equality networks.
We are, of course, having to move on. We're having to plan actively for the long term, and there are pulse surveys that are providing rich data, and a large percentage of staff feel well connected at home. Working from home is a challenge for some people, but it is equally an opportunity for other people, and it may well be the case that, moving forward, in the recruitment, we will be able to offer employment opportunities to a wider range and a more diverse range of people.

Mick Antoniw AC: Can I thank you for the report, and also applaud all the good intentions and the work that is being done? But can I say that I really am not so reassured in this process? What we have is the most dramatic change in the way in which work is carried out at home, and in work technologically, in many ways, and where similar situations have occurred over recent decades, there is a need for us as employers and for the institution to actually take a proactive approach to this. I think there are issues of mental health, eye strain, musculoskeletal problems, occupational stress, ergonomic issues, and there are issues over the hours. What is very clear is that it is not a case of us managing this new environment and Zoom and so on, but Zoom and the environment is actually managing us far more.
What I think needs to be taken, and what I think should be taken, and what I think is our legal duty to take, is to actually commission a radical occupational health analysis of what is happening at the moment and how people are working. I think it has to be a proactive, expert report that will come forward with recommendations. I think it needs to be done sooner rather than later, because this way of working is going to be with us for a long way in a very intense period of time. I wonder if you could actually take that back to the Commission to actually take those steps, which actually, I think, are probably the legal steps that we do need to take now. The existing steps are, I think, reactive rather than proactive, and I think it's that change of approach that I would recommend.

Joyce Watson AC: I agree that we have to make absolutely certain that all those things you mentioned, the eye strain, the posture—I'm sure mine isn't very good here at the moment, and that of many other people. So, I think a review now is absolutely the right time because, as I said, we are looking at reviewing working forward. There is a recognition, of course, that many people will want to carry on working from home, and on the other hand, other people may have to work from home. That is what happened when we had the coronavirus in the very first place: we suddenly had to find different ways of working in March and people are carrying that out.
In terms of the immediate, which is what the Commission has focused on, and the things that they've done, they are giving health, safety and emotional support in the form of working from home guidance and display screen equipment assessments, and they've set up guidance on posture, ICT guidance, information and links, and that is of course all online. We've also helped people who've experienced domestic abuse during lockdown and, again, that is hugely important for those people.
But you raised the issue, quite rightly, about looking after the workforce in the same way that they would be looked after if they were visibly within an office, and all those things that would have happened to make sure that their chairs and their screens were ergonomically aligned, and that their desks were able to move according to their need. So, there is an assessment that needs to happen. That assessment, I'm sure, will happen and I most definitely will, along with other Members here, be taking that back and giving it very serious consideration, and I thank you for it.

Question 2 is next, and that question is to be answered by Commissioner David Rowlands, and asked by Andrew R.T. Davies.

Andrew R.T. Davies—can the microphone be unmuted? Here we go.

Welsh Government and the Tŷ Hywel Building

Andrew RT Davies AC: 2. Will the Commission make a statement on the Welsh Government's use of facilities in the Tŷ Hywel building? OQ55748

David J Rowlands AC: Can I thank Andrew R.T. for that question? The position is that the Welsh Government has a sub-lease to occupy office space on the fifth and second floors of Tŷ Hywel. The sub-lease includes the use of shared facilities, including car parking, meeting and conference rooms, canteen and catering facilities, cycle storage, electric vehicle charging points and, lastly, post room services.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you for that answer, Commissioner. Obviously, the Welsh Government, since 29 September, have chosen to participate in Plenary and Assembly proceedings via the Zoom method, rather than being in person in the Plenary or committee meetings. I'd be grateful to understand from the Commissioner: have any Government Ministers attended the facilities in Tŷ Hywel, because obviously people have seen Ministers—I'm not referring to officials, I'm referring to Ministers only—within the precincts of the Assembly estate? So I think it's important for us to understand whether Ministers are making use of the facilities that they have access to on the Tŷ Hywel part of the complex.

David Melding took the Chair.

David J Rowlands AC: Well, there is a process for managing access to the estate, which includes a notification process for all users of the estate, Members and their staff, Ministers and their staff, and Commission staff and contractors, and this has been shared with all users and it is working effectively.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Well, that's not an answer.

David J Rowlands AC: Well, it does cover the fact that we have to be very careful as to who is actually on the estate at any one time. I am not in a position to answer for Ministers, R.T., as you know.

David Melding AC: Thank you, Commissioner. These are questions, not conversations, I remind Members.
Question 3 will be answered by the Llywydd. Alun Davies.

The Next Senedd Elections

Alun Davies AC: 3. Will the Commision make a statement on preparations to ensure that next May's Senedd elections will go ahead as planned? OQ55764

The forthcoming Senedd elections will be a historic milestone for Wales, with 16 and 17-year-olds voting for the first time. The COVID pandemic will likely result in changes to the administration of the election and voter experience, in order to protect public health. Now, it's returning officers in local authorities, the Welsh Government and the Electoral Commission who are responsible for delivering Senedd elections. However, Commission officials have been attending a Welsh Government convened election planning group to ensure that the Commission is well prepared and to advise on relevant procedures of the Senedd.

Alun Davies AC: Thank you very much. I appreciate that response from the Llywydd, and I appreciate the work that is being done. I want to be in a situation where, if we do need to change the law, that we do that in good time. I am very, very eager to ensure that we consider all the options available to us, those options that we may face in May, and that everything possible has been done—if we need to make changes to the law or to make particular arrangements, or whatever it may be, that the Commission should be part of that process. I understand the situation with returning officers in local authorities and so on, but I do want an assurance that we have everything in place so nothing will prevent those elections from taking place in May.

Well, the Member will know, as I said in my response—I referred to the fact that the Government has convened an electoral planning group, and that group has been meeting, and the Commission has been part of that group, and has agreed on a report that hasn't yet been published, but has been submitted to the First Minister. There are several aspects to that work. I'm sure that, at some point, the First Minister and the Government will make announcements with regard to the implications of the COVID-19 pandemic for our elections next year, but I want those decisions and those announcements, whether they involve the need for legislation in this place or not, to be made as soon as possible so that every decision is discussed here at the Senedd and scrutinised thoroughly, particularly with regard to legislation, if need be.
So the sooner the better in terms of when we will see this discussion happening in the public sphere, remembering, of course, that we are facing a situation that is very difficult for the Government and the people of Wales and that we have to be reasonable in this regard. But, of course, the people of Wales deserve to exercise their right to vote for our next Senedd, and that should be next May, in the hope that the COVID pandemic will allow that to happen.

David Melding AC: Question 4 will be answered by Joyce Watson. Neil McEvoy.

Indirect Racial Discrimination

Neil McEvoy AC: 4. What assessment has the Commission made of its policies to ensure that indirect racial discrimination of elected members and staff does not take place? OQ55734

Joyce Watson AC: [Inaudible.]—are developed and periodically reviewed through a robust process, which includes consultation with all our workplace equality networks, our trade unions, our lawyers, and, when appropriate, advice from our external lawyers. New or revised policies are assessed against all protected characteristics through an equality impact assessment, and the Commission works with independent benchmarking bodies for external assurance on specific aspects of policy. We also gain feedback from Members, their staff and Commission staff, through various surveys, including the dignity and respect survey. Diversity and inclusion training is available for Members, Members' support staff and Commission staff. Members, Members' staff and Commission staff all have avenues to raise concerns formally, if necessary. Provision of specific policy for Members and Members' own staff is the responsibility of the remuneration board. Diversity and inclusion considerations are central to the remuneration board's work.

Neil McEvoy AC: Thank you. The definition of victimisation according to the Equality and Human Rights Commission is when you are treated badly because you have made a complaint of race-related discrimination. Indirect discrimination is when an organisation has a particular policy or a way of working that puts people of your racial group at a disadvantage. During the lockdown, it was at the discretion of the Presiding Officer to decide who would question the First Minister rather than the usual fair ballot system.

David Melding AC: Order. Order. Order. Neil, this relates to an issue of procedure in the Senedd, which is conducted by the Presiding Officers, and it's not something that the Commissioner is qualified to speak about. So, I have to ask you to sit down as this question or this supplementary cannot be in order.

Neil McEvoy AC: It was in order. The officials agreed this question. It has been accepted. I'm raising an issue of racism in this Parliament, indirect discrimination, and I would ask you with the utmost respect that you let me continue, please.

David Melding AC: Was the script cleared with him? What was the script cleared with us?

Neil McEvoy AC: You can ask me to pose the question in—

David Melding AC: Order. You've just told me that the script you were reading was given to the Presiding Office.

Neil McEvoy AC: The question—

David Melding AC: Not your supplementary. Now, no, no—

Neil McEvoy AC: [Inaudible.]

David Melding AC: Order. Neil. I will accept that what you've just told me related to the first question, and I misunderstood it. I was just checking to see if your supplementary had been cleared with the Presiding Office, and it has not. And I've just said, in my view, it cannot be considered in order. You must now sit down.

Neil McEvoy AC: I can say it in a different way.

David Melding AC: I don't think so.

Neil McEvoy AC: This is racism in action.

David Melding AC: No, you must sit down, Neil.

Neil McEvoy AC: This is real racism and discrimination in action.

David Melding AC: Neil, I'm asking you, finally, will—?

Neil McEvoy AC: [Inaudible.]—in this Parliament of not being allowed to put questions to the First Minister while other Members have been allowed to ask questions up to six times.

David Melding AC: Neil—[Inaudible.]—will be switched off. Now, please sit down so that we can continue with our business.
Question 5 will be answered by David Rowlands.

Neil McEvoy AC: Shameful. Shameful.

David Melding AC: Janet Finch-Saunders.

Neil McEvoy AC: Shame. Shame.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: The only shame here right now is your behaviour—

David Melding AC: Order. Janet, you're not helping. Please.

Neil McEvoy AC: Janet, you walk around with my colour skin—

David Melding AC: Order. Neil, please leave the Chamber. I think that's best for everyone now.

Neil McEvoy AC: I'm going. You walk around with this colour skin—

David Melding AC: No, no. Please, Neil.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you, acting Presiding Officer.

Neil McEvoy AC: You walk around with my skin and see how you get treated. You don't understand.

David Melding AC: Question 5, sorry, will be answered by David Rowlands. Janet, I'm sorry to have interrupted you.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: No, it's okay. Thank you, acting Presiding Officer.

Biodiversity on the Senedd Estate

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: 5. Will the Commission make a statement on improving awareness of biodiversity on the Senedd estate? OQ55725

David J Rowlands AC: Can I thank Janet Finch-Saunders for her question? Within the limited green space on our estate, the Commission has made significant improvements in recent years to encourage biodiversity. We introduced two beehives and organised a launch event with local children, Members and academicsto promote the value of bees and improvements to support the wider pollinator population. A third beehive has been installed this summer. The Commission has also worked with the RSPB and Buglife to become an Urban Buzz centre over the past 18 months. Our work was promoted to wider audiences via an RSPB guest blog written by Commission staff as an example of what can be achieved in an urban environment.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: I've read the sustainability annual report for 2019-20. I've no doubt that positive action is being taken to enhance biodiversity on our estate—we have the Pierhead beehive project, a small pond, and the wildflower strip. Now, according to the report, the gardening and biodiversity club are committed to maintaining and improving these habitats. But I believe there's room for more ambition. Whilst not strictly part of the Senedd estate, Cardiff Bay itself is clearly visible from our terrace. So what consideration could you give to perhaps build on past experience of working with the RSPB and Buglife, by co-operating with the Marine Conservation Society to develop a 'Senedd and the sea' project to inform visitors of the complex biodiversity that could be achieved in Cardiff Bay? Diolch.

David J Rowlands AC: Whilst the Commission has not considered this particular aspect before, I'm sure that, now you've brought it to our attention, we are more than willing to have a look at it and to consider how we may react to your suggestions.

4. Topical Questions

David Melding AC: Item 4 is topical questions. None were accepted.

5. 90-second Statements

David Melding AC: Item 5 is 90-second statements, and there were none selected. So we will now have a short break, to allow for change-over in the Chamber.

Plenary was suspended at 15:32.

The Senedd reconvened at 15:37, with the Llywydd in the Chair.

6. Debate on a Member's Legislative Proposal: Welsh Hearts Bill

The next item on our agenda is a debate on a Member's legislative proposal on a Welsh hearts Bill. It is to be moved by Alun Davies.

Motion NDM7427 Alun Davies, Rhun ap Iorwerth, Dai Lloyd, Andrew R.T. Davies
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Notes a proposal for a Welsh hearts Bill to improve the outcomes for people who suffer out-of-hospital cardiac arrests.
2. Notes that the purpose of the Bill would be to place a duty on:
a) Welsh Ministers to publish a strategy to improve the outcomes of out-of-hospital cardiac arrest and to develop pathways for survival for the whole country;
b) local authorities to plan to ensure sufficient access to community defibrillators in each part of their area;
c) Welsh Ministers to ensure that training in CPR is provided for people throughout Wales;
d) health boards to collaborate in the production of regional pathway of survival for out-of-hospital cardiac arrests; and
e) Welsh Ministers to report to the Senedd on the progress of their strategy against objectives every year.

Motion moved.

Alun Davies AC: Thank you very much, Presiding Officer. I'd like to start my contribution today by thanking Dai Lloyd, Rhun ap Iorwerth and Andrew R.T. Davies for their support in bringing forward this legislative proposal. But, Presiding Officer, I would also want to start by thanking Thoma and Mike Powell, who saved my life by performing CPR on me; Tom, who cycled like mad to find a defibrillator; to all those people whose names I don't know who helped when Thoma needed a rest; to the paramedics; and, then, to Sean Gallagher and his cardiac care team in the Heath hospital. In thanking all these people, we also tell a story of a cardiac arrest and the people who need to be able to save a life.
Now, I would be first to accept that I'm not a natural athlete. But, when I decided to go for a quick run one evening in the spring, I had no reason to believe that it may well have been the last thing I would ever do. I'd experienced no pain or discomfort at any point in the days leading up to this happening. I had no sense of being unwell and had no underlying issues that led me to believe that I was at particular risk. It was a bolt out of the blue. There were cuts on my face because it was instantaneous. I wasn't even able to break my fall. When this happens the person needs immediate help: immediate CPR and the use of a defibrillator. But we know that both of those things can be frightening and intimidating for any bystander. I was unconscious before I had any understanding of what was happening to me. There's no time to call for help.
Tom wrote me an e-mail, which explained what happened. Let me say it in his words: 'When I arrived at the scene, they were already giving you CPR. All seemed frantic but organised. To make use of myself I offered to direct the ambulance in. A frantic dog walker told me they couldn't locate the defibrillator, as directed to them by the 999 operator. I knew locating the defibrillator was critical, so I set my mind to finding one. A very nice lady on the security desk at the college handed it over with minimal questions asked. I then rushed back with it. The adrenaline was coursing and I was too squeamish to do it myself, but your friend knew what to do. She had obviously had training.' And it was that training, Presiding Officer, that saved my life and that enables me to make this speech today.
I recognise and understand that Wales has an out-of-hospital cardiac arrest strategy, which was launched back in 2017, and I understand that it sets out a collaborative programme of work to improve both survival and aftercare. In many ways, this strategy touches on the main issues that I seek to address this afternoon. I'm making this legislative proposal today because I do not believe that this plan has had the reach or the impact that we would all like to see.
In essence, there are two main elements to this proposal. First of all, to ensure that we have the opportunity to save a life when a person suffers a cardiac arrest, and, secondly, that they receive the care required to lead a normal life afterwards. I recognise that the British Heart Foundation, and many Members, have been campaigning for some years for CPR training to be delivered in schools and colleges. I agree. In this proposal, I am simply asking that the Welsh Government takes responsibility for ensuring that such training takes place. The Government has resisted formal training in a school environment. Therefore, the Government has a responsibility to outline its alternative.
The location of community defibrillators is also essential. Unless a defibrillator can be found and used within minutes, then it will be too late. I was very lucky, but I'm aware that a young man suffered a cardiac arrest close to where I did a few years ago. At that time, a defibrillator was not found, and that young man lost his life. I'm also reminded of the campaign being led by the family of Justin Edinburgh, the former manager of Newport County, who died after suffering a cardiac arrest in a gym where there was no defibrillator. I can see no way forward unless we specify a direct duty on local government to ensure that there is access to these life savers through each one of our different communities.
The second aspect of this proposal is to ensure that health boards work together and collaborate to create pathways of survival. This means clinicians and NHS management working together across health board boundaries to develop and deliver not only the best diagnosis and care, but to deliver the best outcome for patients. I fear sometimes that our health boards do not work together as well as perhaps they should. There is no purpose in competition, and no purpose in duplication of resources. I would like to see the ambitions and the words of the existing strategy become a reality. And that's why I want to see this thing on the statute book. There is much to learn from this example, and much to learn from other places and other countries.
Again, in Tom's words: 'Your chest must have been feeling bruised and sore. A number of members of the general public worked hard on you. It was dramatic stuff. Having seen it done, if ever it happens again, I feel confident I could take charge of the situation.' It is that confidence and that belief that I want to become commonplace in Wales. In April, I became one of only 3 per cent of people who've survived an out-of-hospital cardiac arrest. I feel strongly that we all now have a profound responsibility to all those who have not survived and did not survive to ensure that, in the future, we can all have the same opportunity to survive and to live. Thank you very much.

Suzy Davies AC: Alun, I'm delighted that you brought this to the Chamber today. Nothing is more powerful than personal testimony, personal experience that has inspired you to try and change something that really does need changing. Unfortunately, as you said, 97 per cent of those people who suffer a cardiac arrest aren't here to share testimony in the way that you've been able to do.
I think your call for a strategy and a pathway is really well made. Personally, I'd like to see it sit alongside a new disease-specific heart condition delivery plan. Cardiology is not something that can be cut and shut with other delivery plans, and yet what you're talking about should certainly be part of this, because cardiac arrest is not the same as heart failure or a heart attack. You can be as fit as a flea, as you discovered, and you can still have this. You can't prepare for it, and that's why I'm going to be supporting these proposals.
In so doing, though, I hope you won't mind, Alun, allowing me to remind you all that I introduced some very compatible legislative proposals right at the beginning of the process when you were able to do that. And one of the elements of that—because there were many that were in common with what you're asking for today—was for basic lifesaving skills to be mandatory on the curriculum. And, at the time, the Assembly was in favour of that, which is why I'm pleased you've raised in the debate today the need for Welsh Government to explain what it would do instead—something that would achieve the same results as efficiently and as cost-effectively. To be honest, I'm not sure that anything would be quite as efficient and effective in overcoming the bystander CPR problem, as two hours of training every year in schools is a pretty tiny amount of time to be spent on it. I think two hours is not cluttering up a curriculum. And what it does, of course, is introduce or create that ability to step in, just like the people who stepped in to save you. And I don't think a general availability of training will quite create that.
The Members of the Youth Parliament get that and that's why it's their top ask in terms of curriculum—delivering on a promise to give young people the skills for adult life. And I suppose the question that springs from that is: why should delivery of their top ask be pretty much a postcode lottery, where Scotland and England are making sure that their children know how to step in and save a life? Denmark is an exemplar in this—mandatory curriculum training is part of why they are so great at this and why their survival rates are so high.
But I want to finish, if you don't mind, Llywydd, with a big shout out to all our communities who actually put their money where their heart is. You'll know what I mean, Alun: hundreds and hundreds of people in our communities have been fundraising to put defibrillators into places where the community can benefit from them? I wouldn't want any legislative proposals to take away from the social capital, and I'm sure that's not your intention. Let our constituents be active players in solving a problem, and I'm sure that anyone watching today will be more than willing to support your legislative proposals. Thank you. Oh, I only had three minutes.

No, that's fine. Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you very much, Llywydd. I'm very pleased to support this legislative proposal today. We heard Alun Davies saying that he considers himself very fortunate to be here. Only 3 per cent who suffer out-of-hospital cardiac arrest survive, and research shows that CPR is only attempted in some 20 to 30 per cent of cases. So, generally speaking, there is work to be done to ensure that everyone has the best possible opportunity to survive. We need to look at why people aren't willing to try CPR—maybe they don't know how to or they fear that they would injure somebody; people might even fear transferring diseases in this current crisis.
Cardiopulmonary resuscitation and learning CPR is so hugely important. I received training myself, as many Senedd Members have. I've allowed my constituency office to be used for CPR training purposes, and we need to extend this to as many people as possible. The Welsh Government recommends that CPR be taught in school, but it's not mandatory, as it is in Scotland and in England. We need to change that.
But of course, it's not just in schools where we need to provide this training. There are plans by the British Heart Foundation, St John's Ambulance, the British Red Cross and so on and so forth. We need to extend those and have strategies in place to ensure that that happens—that everyone has that opportunity to participate in such training.
Another element, of course, is the need for sufficient access to defibrillators, and there is excellent work being done by grass-roots campaigns in my constituency and the constituencies of many other Members here to ensure that more of these defibrillators are available in our constituencies. It's one thing to have them, but people need to be able to use them too. But I am particularly pleased to be able to draw attention to a clause in this legislative proposal asking for sufficient access to community defibrillators in each part of Wales. We cannot rely on active volunteers in some areas who want to ensure that their village or their part of town or city will have one—it has to be part of a national strategy.
So, yes, proposals have been made in the past, and yes, in a way there are things that could be done without legislation to introduce some of these changes, but I urge you to support the underpinning intention of this legislation to use every possible tool, including legislative tools, so that more people get that second chance that Alun had.

David Melding took the Chair.

Mick Antoniw AC: I very much welcome this debate and the underpinning proposal that lies behind it. Alun, when we heard the news of what had happened to you, it did send shockwaves through and was particularly poignant to me at the time because five and a half years earlier, my wife had a cardiac arrest and didn't survive. She was on her own at the time; I gave CPR for what seemed an eternity, but I think the point is how many families are actually affected by it and the actual numbers of cardiac arrests that there are.
For me, one of the issues that perhaps wasn't mentioned in it but might form part of the debate is, in fact, the need for, I think, a more proactive scanning to take place to identify some of the causes of cardiac arrest and how they occur. When one looks with hindsight at these situations, you wonder how many lives might have been saved had that been the case.
In Tonyrefail, there's been a fantastic group led by PC Steve Davies, and in Tonyrefail now we have the highest density of defibrillators: there are well over 30 defibrillators around Tonyrefail and there are several lives that have been saved already by those. And that group as well has also provided training and support, with the British Heart Foundation, in schools and so on, so the issue of training is very, very important.
One thing that is raised, though, that again might form part of this in respect of defibrillators is that communities come together, they raise considerable funds to provide the defibrillators—this is about communities workingfor one another collectively, but there is a need for some support in that, once those defibrillators are there, the batteries need replacing periodically and there may be a certain amount of maintenance and so on. And I think once you've gone to the effort of actually getting those defibrillators in place, I think there is a need for some sort of support to actually enable the maintenance of those assets as they are. So, that would be one of the key points I would like to see developed and discussed.
So, just to thank Alun Davies for bringing this—I think there are probably many families around who have experienced this, and, as has been said, most that experience cardiac arrest do not survive. Hopefully, by having this debate, and potentially by using the tools and, potentially, legislation, we can actually reduce that failure rate in the future. Thank you.

Dai Lloyd AC: The aim of this motion for a Welsh hearts Bill is to improve outcomes for people who suffer out-of-hospital cardiac arrests, and I very much support that motion. The emphasis on the out-of-hospital is important: if somebody is to fall to the ground unconscious in the middle of the street or in a shop or when they're out jogging and you're the only one who's there, would you know what to do?
So, in the first instance, may I congratulate Alun Davies—I congratulated him yesterday; this is turning into a habit—but can I congratulate him specifically today on working so hard behind the scenes to bring forward this motion, and also congratulate him on the fact that he survived this out-of-hospital cardiac arrest because it's very uncommon to do so, as we've heard? It's miraculous, almost. We've heard his eloquent contribution, and thank you for that. It was a very important insight.
Now, we know about the expertise of our surgeons, our nurses in our major hospitals who deal with heart disease, specialist surgery with regard to cardiac surgery, and they innovate every day of the week, but the emphasis of today's motion is on out-of-hospital and out-of-surgery treatment, where there are no medical professionals available. It's important, as we've heard, to have the confidence in the first instance to intervene, and on top of that the ability to take action in this emergency situation. Now, the Denmark experience shows that if everybody learned CPR in school, we could save around 200 lives every year.
Now, in finding someone unconscious on the street, it must be ensured that they have suffered a cardiac arrest, and ensure that they are breathing, look for a pulse, and ensure that it is safe for you to intervene. You then place two hands on the chest, to the words of 'Nelliethe Elephant' or 'Staying Alive'—that's the rhythm that you need—then you must find a defibrillator and phone 999 for an emergency ambulance. Because these people have died. People are concerned about causing harm, but these people to all intents and purposes have died. Alun Davies had died. You can't make the situation worse. It's 3 per cent of these people who survive; in some cases, 8 per cent. So, it's 3 per cent who had died and are now alive, and Alun is one of them. That's how much of a miracle it is, and we need to give praise for that. But, of course, more people survive in countries where there is additional training for people, and more confidence for people to intervene in the first instance. And with that confidence, more people can take action. People will know what to do, people won't panic and people will give first aid and CPR, as they'll know what to do instinctively. So, that's why it should be mandatory in schools.
And to conclude, we have to improve the availability of defibrillators in community settings. They have to be prominent; we know that they're there. People have been fundraising for them—we do know that they're there. We need more of them. There needs to be a register of them, as Mick Antoniw said. Somebody needs to take care of them because there's no point having one that doesn't work. We have to know where they are and we need that register of defibrillators, and they need constant maintenance.
Every minute counts in this kind of emergency, the emergency that Alun Davies faced. That's why we need to have people willing to intervene with the defibrillators, and we need the ambulances too. Alun Davies has crystallised this perfectly in his inspirational story. It's incumbent on all of us to play our part—support the motion.

David Melding AC: I call the Minister for Health and Social Services, Vaughan Gething.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you, acting Deputy Presiding Officer. I want to start by saying 'thank you' to all Members who contributed to the debate, but in particular to Alun Davies and Mick Antoniw for sharing their personal experience. Just as with last week and the debate on endometriosis, I think it is powerful—not just for other Members, but for the watching public—where Members share their own experience of the issues being discussed. Suzy Davies did so very effectively last week, and again today with both Alun Davies and Mick Antoniw. And on Mick's specific point on maintenance—that is covered in the work that I'm going to describe in more detail, because he's right, it isn't just about having more defibrillators, it's about making sure that they're properly maintained as well as being properly accessible. And I am genuinely pleased, of course, that Alun is part of the 3 per cent of survivors. All of us, regardless of where we sit in this virtual Chamber, want to see more survivors in the future. The only real question is how.
Now, Members, I hope, will know that I'm committed to improving people's chances of surviving an out-of-hospital cardiac arrest. So, to support that aim, in June 2017 I launched an out-of-hospital cardiac arrest plan for Wales. That was an ambitious plan to see the general public, third sector, emergency services and healthcare professionals work together to respond to people having cardiac arrests in the community. It is a sad fact that, as Alun has outlined, a patient's chance of surviving an out-of-hospital cardiac arrest decreases by an estimated 10 per cent with every passing minute. Survival rates are low, but there is a real potential to save many more lives, as has been demonstrated in number of countries who are taking active steps to improve each stage in what is called the 'chain of survival'.
It's also worth reflecting that the starting point would be if we could avoid cardiac arrests in the first place, in improving our broader public health. We shouldn't forget the debates we have here about exercise, about smoking, about alcohol and having a healthy weight. I was pleased to hear Suzy Davies mention Denmark: it's a part of the world where I have family, and part of our challenge in understanding why Denmark has a significantly different outcome is partly about the out-of-hospital provision, but they start in a very, very different place culturally, but also start in a very different place with significantly better public health outcomes as well. And so our challenge is to learn from all parts of how cardiac arrest survival is improved in other parts of the world. But we recognise that we do need to take concerted action to improve survival rates here. Improving outcomes requires that broad range of activities, including early recognition and call for help to try and prevent cardiac arrest happening—Alun described how there was recognition and a call for help—the early provision of CPR to buy time for the patient, early defibrillation to restart the heart and then optimal post-resuscitation care, which all play a part in giving people the best quality—the best outcome and the best potential for a good quality of life afterwards. I do recognise that progress was initially slower than I and Members would have liked, and that there has been an impact of the coronavirus outbreak, but we have made real progress nevertheless. The progress includes improving pathways within both the Welsh ambulance service and health boards to ensure that, once a 999 call is received, people receive the help necessary and the support to increase the chance of survival both prior to the paramedic's arrival on the scene and before transport to an appropriate hospital for definitive treatment.
There's been a steady increase in the number of defibrillators mapped into the Welsh ambulance dispatch system. We now have, on the last count available to me, 5,042 defibrillators across Wales available to the public now registered, and the establishment of an out-of-hospital cardiac arrest register to better map the data surrounding out-of-hospital cardiac arrests across the entire pathway from onset to treatment and discharge from hospital—and I know sometimes that looking at data isn't always that interesting, but it's really important to whole-system improvement—and the development of all-Wales guidelines for CPR and defibrillation training.
I established the Save a Life Cymru partnership in January last year, supported by £586,000 of Welsh Government funding over two years. That initiative launched in the Cardiff City Stadium, again, because there had been a commitment from people involved around the city and also experience of loss from cardiac arrest. But we're working to build on the efforts already made by partner organisations that I've already described in the third sector, Welsh ambulance, health boards and others. The Save a Life Cymru partnership is now working collaboratively in a number of ways to understand how individual organisations within the partnership work—part of our challenge is that not all of our third sector partners are aware of what each other is doing; not all of our areas of our whole system have a proper awareness of where help can be provided—and working with youth organisations, the Wales Council for Voluntary Action, public services, universities and employers to look at opportunities for joint working. Last Friday, the partnership launched a new campaign, Touch Someone's Life. That lays the foundation for saving lives across Wales. As part of the campaign, a free online training video has been created—I hope that Members will have had an opportunity to look at it, but, if not, after this debate will do so and share it. Save a Life Cymru is encouraging everyone to spend a few minutes watching the training video and learning how to save someone's life.
So, collectively, we are determined to improve the outcomes of people suffering a cardiac arrest. We do have a plan in place that has not yet run its course, and, as I've outlined, there is real progress in it. So, whilst I have a great deal of sympathy for the motion and I want to see the improvements made, I don't believe, at this point in time, it's necessary to legislate on this area or place additional statutory duties on organisations. However, the Government will not rule out future legislation or future legislative action if we do not see the improvements that we all want to see in saving lives. So, the Government will abstain today, rather than opposing the motion, and all Government supporting backbenchers will have a free vote. And I do want to say I do think this has been a useful exercise in how we spend our time within the Senedd in debating an issue and greater awareness. I look forward to the outcome of the vote, but, more importantly, to the outcome on our progress as a country in saving more lives.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

I call on Andrew R.T. Davies to reply to the debate. Andrew R.T. Davies.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you very much, Presiding Officer. And can I thank everyone who's participated in this debate moved by Alun today? I was very pleased to be a co-signatory to the motion. I'll bring a bit of levity, if I may, to my opening remarks. When Alun rang me up about this debate that he was looking to put forward and seek my support as one of the Conservative Members, I was in a middle of a beef shed chasing a load of cattle around the shed, trying to sort them out.If anything will raise your blood pressure, as anyone who understands agriculture, chasing cattle that are about 600, 650 kg, and, nine times out of 10, they are coming for you—. And then you suddenly get a phone call with Alun Davies showing up on the screen, and you start thinking that that's really going to do your blood pressure no good at all, to be honest with you. So, I am grateful, but the timing of when he did call me was not the most opportune moment, and that's why maybe the brevity of the conversation was, 'Yes, I'll do it, Alun. Thank you very much.'
But, in the intervening period, what I've learnt is a great deal about what we can do as a legislature to try and improve outcomes for patients and, indeed, people who go through the very experience that Alun Davies and Mick Antoniw highlighted in their contributions today. Sadly, for Mick, the outcome wasn't as good as Alun's outcome was, and both participants in this debate—both Alun and Mick—highlighted how only 3 per cent of people who have an out-of-hospital cardiac experience do survive that. That's 97 per cent not surviving that experience. That, in itself, should encourage us all to focus on what we can do.
Whilst I agree with the Minister that there's much good work going on, especially some of the programmes that have been brought forward—and the Minister was candid enough to highlight how he didn't think that the plan had moved at the pace that he would have liked, which he introduced earlier in this Assembly term—it is important that, where things are failing, as was highlighted by Alun's opening remarks, we do try and turn to legislation to try and give people rights, important rights, that, ultimately, will, hopefully, improve the experience wherever you live across Wales.
Both Rhun ap Iorwerth and Dai Lloyd and Suzy Davies in their contributions highlighted the other benchmarking that we can put ourselves against. And, indeed, the Minister alluded to it as well. When you look at Denmark, for example, and the gold standard that exists in Denmark—. I appreciate what the Minister said; there are cultural differences, in particular, that most probably have driven some of those performance indicators that show what an improvement you can make when you do get it ingrained in society, life-saving skills. But, for me, Dai Lloyd's remark—and this was most probably based on his medical experience—that, you know, in Denmark they are saving 200 lives a year plus by having that life-saving experience in their society as a norm, that isn't something that we should look at lightly, to be honest with you.
The point that all Members contributing in this debate made was the great community spirit, in particular, when it comes to deployment of defibrillators. I think the Minister highlighted that it was nearly 6,000—I think that's the figure that he referred to—now that are deployed across Wales. I, in my own home area of Rhoose, have had the privilege and pleasure to work with community groups and contribute to the deployment in the last 18 months of three defibrillators in that area. But, regrettably, there would be a lot of uninformed individuals who wouldn't know exactly where those defibrillators are. That awareness, and that campaigning to make sure that those defibrillators, when they are deployed, are serviced on a regular basis, is a critical component of making sure that people understand that those defibrillators exist in the community that they live in and they can be used.
Every single contributor made the point about learning the skills to use the equipment, because there's no point in deploying it if people don't feel confident enough to use the defibrillators. I have to be honest myself: I, most probably, even after—like Rhun ap Iorwerth said—undertaking sessions here in the Assembly or, indeed, in our constituency or regional offices, wouldn't necessarily feel that confident to go and use a defibrillator. I certainly, after this debate today, will make sure that I double up on my skills on that, because who knows when we might be walking in that park and see what happened to Alun Davies, for example, and be able to step in and, hopefully, save a life.
I do hope that Labour backbenchers and all party members here today—whether it's Plaid Cymru, the Conservatives or the independents—do agree with this motion that's on the order paper today. Because it really is a proposal at the moment. I understand the Minister's point, when he says that the Government will abstain. But we are going into an election period, and it is incumbent on Members, if they do believe in improving cardiac services across Wales, that they do put pressure on their individual parties to put this in their manifestos. Because it's taking the words that people speak in this Chamber and putting them into reality that actually makes improvements in our society and our communities across Wales.
So, I do hope that support from across the Chamber will come for Alun's proposal, and I do thank him for the eloquent and informed way he delivered his opening remarks today. It's a pleasure to see him on the screen as being one of only those 3 per cent of individuals—. And I will repeat that—. I can see the Presiding Officer looking at me with the red marks on—[Interruption.] But I will make this point to all Members: only 3 per cent of people survive an out-of-hospital cardiac experience. That's 97 per cent don't. That, in itself, should make us all want to redouble our efforts and make those improvements, and, by voting for this proposal this afternoon, we can make that difference. Thank you, Presiding Officer.

The proposal is to note the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes,I see that there are objections and therefore I defer voting until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

7. Debate on Petition P-05-1003: Demand an EIA now on the dumping of radioactively contaminated mud in Welsh waters

The next item is the debate on the the petition 'Demand an EIA now on the dumping of radioactively contaminated mud in Welsh waters'. I call on the Chair of the Petitions Committee to move the motion. Janet Finch-Saunders.

Motion NDM7438 Janet Finch-Saunders
To propose that the Senedd:
Notes the petition 'P-05-1003 Demand an EIA now on the dumping of radioactively contaminated mud in Welsh waters' which received 10,692 signatures.

Motion moved.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Diolch. Thank you, Llywydd, on behalf of the Petitions Committee, for the opportunity to introduce this debate on the petition calling for an environmental impact assessment, or EIA, to be carried out into the proposed disposal of sediment from outside HinkleyPoint into the Bristol channel. Now, this petition collected more than 10,000 signatures, and I do not need to make Members aware of the concern that has been expressed publicly about this issue. That concern is not new, of course. This petition follows up a previous one, which was considered in detail by our committee and debated in 2018.
The sediment proposed for disposal is to be dredged as part of the construction of the new Hinkley Point C nuclear power station in Somerset. Because the nominated disposal site, known as the Cardiff Grounds, is in Welsh waters, the licensing process for the disposal is determined by Natural Resources Wales. This includes deciding whether an EIA is required. However, earlier this month, EDF announced that it has decided itself to undertake an EIA, pre-empting that decision. Now, I want to acknowledge that step taken by EDF as part of this debate. They state that they have done so
'in order to provide the public with further reassurance that all concerns have been addressed.'
On 12 October, NRW also formally confirmed that an EIA is required. NRW has also sought to reassure that all marine licence applications are thoroughly and robustly assessed to protect people and, indeed, the environment. The fact that an EIA will be carried out answers the primary calls made in the petition, and I want to welcome the fact that this will be the case. It is clear that concern does still exist amongst some members of the public about the potential environmental and health impacts of this work. These concerns primarily relate to the contents of the sediment, due to previous nuclear power generation at Hinkley Point. It is vital, therefore, that the licensing process is conducted in an open and transparent way. That is the only way that you can reassure people that the sediment will only be disposed of if it is safe to do so.
I also want to acknowledge that both NRW and EDF are providing regular public updates on this process, and have indeed set up a dedicated web page. The Petitions Committee has expressed concern about public communication during the early stages last time, and I am really pleased to acknowledge that improvements have been made and that people have been listened to. NRW has also pledged to consult publicly on the full licence application it expects to receive early next year. This is all to be welcomed.
For the last part of this speech, I want to refer to the concerns of the petitioners in a bit more detail. Many of these relate to the safety of the nuclear power industry full stop. Whether or not the UK uses nuclear power generation is clearly a matter beyond the scope of the marine licensing process, and indeed the powers of the Welsh Government or NRW. However, the petitioners also have concerns that can be addressed here in Wales through these processes. Most importantly, it is crucial that detailed testing and analysis is done on this sediment. That is the only way to be sure that it is safe to be deposited back into the Bristol channel. The adequacy of sampling and testing was the major area of concern for the Petitions Committee last time, as outlined in our 2018 report. NRW has approved EDF's sampling plan this time around, and the results of that testing will clearly be critical. So, I hope the Ministerwill be able to provide us with confirmation today that testing for the full range of radioactivity will be carried out this time around. It is also essential that the outcomes of the testing and the EIA process are openly and transparently communicated. Again, that is the only way to take the public with you and for them to achieve the confidence they need and they deserve.
Beyond the headline call for an EIA, the petition also makes detailed demands for what this should involve. The EIA process is outlined in law and regulations, but it is clearly vital that it should present a full and robust assessment of the possible impacts and risks of disposing of the sediment in this way. So, I hope that the Minister will be able to respond to these points today and also state her commitment to seeking the public reassurances that I am sure we would all like to see achieved on this matter.
I look forward, now, to hearing the contributions of other Members of this Senedd during the rest of this debate. Diolch yn fawr.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: I think the fact that we're discussing this in the Chamber today highlights that there are very real concerns among the people of Wales on the intention to dump mud from Hinkley off the south Wales coast.
I have been in touch with scientists, campaigners and the Geiger Bay campaign particularly, and all of them expressed real concerns about the impact of such dumping on the environment, marine life and also public health this side of the Bristol channel. I've also had discussions with the regulatory body, Natural Resources Wales, in order to discuss the process around these proposals. I made it clear in my meeting with them that we need a thorough EIA that is also transparent as part of this process. And if there are any significant questions that haven't been answered at the end of that process, then it's unlikely that either I or anyone else in their right mind could support the intention to dump hundreds of thousands of tonnes of mud, which could be contaminated, in Welsh waters.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: It's perhaps illuminating that EDF, the firm behind the project, have now felt it necessary to undertake an environmental impact assessment before Natural Resources Wales insisted on them doing so. I think that that is a recognition of the need for a comprehensive and thorough analysis of sediment samples. And this goes beyond the initial sampling plan, which was the subject of public consultation, of course. I trust that EDF's scoping will be comprehensive and that the findings, of course, importantly, will be made publicly available to everyone.
Now, EDF says that it intends to go further than normal regulatory requirements in order to provide the public with additional reassurance. Well, that in itself, I think, is a measure of the campaign's effectiveness to date, and we'll wait to see details of how thorough and how deep the tests will be, including tests for pure alpha emitting particles and tritium.
So, to quote EDF on their reason for the unilateral decision to undertake an EIA, they say,
'We believe it is right to go beyond technical arguments to provide the necessary public confidence that all concerns have been addressed.'
'All concerns have been addressed'—well, I should hope so, too, because such is the level of public interest in this that we have to retain public confidence as well. And that is welcome news because no such impact assessment was carried out in the initial dump in 2018. And I have to say that the nuclear industry generally doesn't have a very good track record in terms of openness and transparency, which may well explain some of the opposition that we're looking at here in Wales to these proposals.
So, Plaid Cymru supports a full and transparent environmental impact assessment, which, of course, is the main thrust of the petition before us today, quite simply because of the history of the site; it's been a nuclear power plant for more than half a century. Radioactive particles from the outflow pipes of Hinkley Point A, which operated from 1965 to 2000, and Hinkley Point B, which has been open since 1976, have been flushed out into Bridgewater bay for the last 55 years. And, of course, we know that there were plutonium leaks from Hinkley Point A in the 1970s, which may also have contaminated the mud that they now, of course, want to dump in Welsh waters. And this new proposal, remember, is to dump eight times as much mud compared to the last dump in 2018. It's 600,000 cubic tonnes, compared to 82,000 tonnes last time.
Enough time has elapsed to enable the EIA this time to examine and assess what happened to the sediment dumped at the Cardiff grounds dispersal site in 2018. And the EIA should also ensure that radiation levels along the southern coast of Wales are measured before any further dumping, and that would give us baseline data against which any increases in radiation, as a result of any further dumping, could be determined. With the tidal range in the Severn, of course, it's very likely that this mud will disperse far and wide and particles could be washed ashore, and the impacts of this on people living along the coast, using the beaches, even those who eat seafood, should be measured and assessed as well.
Testing in Cumbria in the 1980s by researchers from the Atomic Energy Research Establishment at Harwell established that sediment dumped from Sellafield nuclear power plant was washed ashore and subsequently blown several miles inland. So, any impact assessment on this proposal should also focus on the potential for this mud to be washed ashore and blown inland from the south Wales coast. Understanding the extent of the dispersal of this mud, especially onto our shores, and the impact of the actual particles contained in it that may be harmful to wildlife and to humans is absolutely paramount. Comprehensive measuring should also mean testing to detect alpha emitters, not just gamma emitters, because alpha emitters are more dangerous when they're inhaled.
During my meeting last month with Natural Resources Wales, I made it clear what I expected from this process before any possibility of granting a licence for further dumping. And EDF is carrying out this EIA, but, of course, it shouldn't be allowed to mark its own homework. It needs to show all of its working publicly so that we can all have confidence in the robustness and validity of the process. If the well-being of future generations Act is to mean anything, then the precautionary principle has to apply here. The onus here has to be on EDF and Natural Resources Wales to prove that the mud dumping is safe beyond doubt and not just leave it to campaigners to try and prove that it isn't, and any failure in that respect should mean no dumping. I'll be watching over this process with an eagle eye, as I know others will, I'm sure, over the coming months to make sure that we get the right outcome for our environment and, of course, for the health and the well-being of the people of Wales.

Andrew RT Davies AC: I welcome the opportunity to contribute in the debate this afternoon, as someone who was on the first Petitions Committee back in the 2007 to 2011 Assembly, when we adopted this principle of people being able to bring petitions to the Assembly, not just to be deposited in a sack behind the Speaker or the Presiding Officer's chair, such as happens in Westminster, but for a committee of the Assembly to actually scrutinise and bring Ministers to account and, obviously, make sure that petitioners feel that their concerns are being answered. So, I do welcome the Chair's opening remarks and the positivity with which the committee have engaged in this process, noting that this is the second petition to come, because, as has been said earlier, this is the second planned mud drop, if it does go ahead. And I, as someone who represents the region of South Wales Central, which has a large coastline that potentially could be affected by this mud drop, I've had numerous constituents obviously raise their concerns.
I come at it from a slightly different perspective in that I do support nuclear power. I believe it is part of the energy mix that we need to see, and in fact have visited the Hinkley power construction site and noted the number of Welsh workers who are on that site and the Welsh pound that has been rewarded with investment from the project as a whole. But that said, I think it is of critical importance that the developer does undertake an EIA and it does address the concerns—the genuine concerns—that people have put before me and many other Assembly Members and, indeed, the Petitions Committee. I do welcome the company's willingness to actually now commission such an EIA before it submits its evidence to Natural Resources Wales, who, ultimately, will be the determiner of the licence in this particular instance.
But what is equally important is that they do not mark their own homework, that the evidence and the methodology and all workings are shown crystal clear so that they can be tested, because, obviously, this has the potential to affect a large part of the south Wales population, but also the west country coast as well, by movement within the estuary. It's my understanding that the mud has to stay within the estuary because of the sensitivity and the nature of restrictions that are on that particular part of the Bristol channel, and this is one of two grounds that they can identify as being suitable to take the mud from the discharge site.
But I do accept that there's a broad spectrum of opinion on this. Indeed, the Chair of the committee highlighted that in her opening remarks, when she said there is a broad body of opinion that is concerned about the mud that might be dumped because it might have contaminants in, and the EIA, hopefully, will either prove or disprove that argument, but, equally, there is a body of opinion that is against nuclear energy and doesn't believe that we should be developing nuclear sites. I do not fall into the category of stopping nuclear power, and I want to be honest and transparent about that, but I do fall into the category of making sure that the developers' feet are held to the fire, that they are held accountable and that all the evidence that is put before Natural Resources Wales, and, in particular, the levers that the Welsh Government have at their disposal are exhausted to make sure that all these queries, these concerns are addressed, so that we can have confidence that the second mud drop that will be undertaken is safe, is compliant with the rules that will be imposed and, ultimately, will safeguard the estuary from any pollutants that might be disturbed, should anything be proven when they start digging out that mud.
So, I welcome the opportunity to debate the subject this afternoon. I welcome the work that the Petitions Committee has undertaken, but, above all, I welcome the 10,000 plus signatures that have gone on to this petition that have brought it before the Assembly, so that we can, hopefully, play our part in making sure that we get a just outcome and an outcome that satisfies people's concerns.

Jenny Rathbone AC: The safety of the nuclear power industry is something that I am concerned about too, but I don't think that is what we are discussing here. I oppose the nuclear power industry because there is no safe method of disposal of nuclear waste, but I just want to emphasise that we are not talking about the disposal of nuclear waste, potentially, in the Cardiff sound. So, we really need to be clear about that, because there is a completely different set of regulations for the disposal of nuclear waste, and this is completely separate to the process that's being described by Janet Finch-Saunders.
There are indeed concerns, because some people have been given the impression that this is nuclear waste, and I'm not clear at the moment whether they're justified, as hinted by Llyr Huws Gruffydd. However, I do think that an environmental impact assessment should have been carried out before the mud was disposed of in 2018, simply because the nuclear industry is very secretive in the way it goes about its business. Certainly, up at Sellafield and Windscale, there is a very lengthy history of hiding what's been going on from the local population. So, I think it's important that we know that what is proposed for disposal in the Cardiff sound is not in any way going to impact on the health of our citizens.
There is no way in which EDF is going to be allowed to mark its own homework, because NRW will have to decide on the basis of the environmental impact assessment whether or not this meets the criteria for disposing of waste in the Cardiff sound. So, it is NRW who will make that decision, and also they will be informed by the expert group that has been set up under the chair of Jane Davidson, which I understand has met four times to discuss this matter, and it is a pity, in a way, that we're discussing this today without having had a report from that expert group to advise us on whether or not there is any indication whatsoever that the disposal of this waste is not appropriate in the way in which the licence has been applied for. So, I think it's really important that we don't raise hares running where none exist. We need to look at the evidence, we need to rely on the scientists who understand what is harmful and what is not, and ensure that we're only disposing of material that doesn't pose any danger to the health of our citizens.

Caroline Jones AC: I'd like to thank the petitioners for bringing forward this petition. I have opposed the dumping of sediment dredged from the Hinkley C nuclear power station site in the past because of the uncertainty regarding the safety of sediment. The dredged sediment may be being dumped in the South Wales Central region, but it also affects my region, home to some of the world's top beaches and a haven for marine flora and fauna. For the past several years, many of us in this Chamber have raised concerns about the safety of this sediment, and thanks to us raising those concerns, and thanks to the efforts of this petition, EDF have now consented to a full environmental impact assessment and appointed CEFAS to conduct radiological tests at depth.
I hope CEFAS will also test for a wider range of radionuclides. Research conducted elsewhere shows that higher concentrations of radionuclides are found at depths greater than 1m. We also know that there are 16 times more radionuclides produced by nuclear reactors than were tested for. The sediment surveys tested for caesium-137, cobalt-60 and americium-241, but what about plutonium or curium? Why were these not tested for? What about strontium or tritium? Do these radionuclides not carry a risk to human health? Of course they do, but they were not tested for, and nor were the 50 other radionuclides known to be present in discharge from these old nuclear power plants. CEFAS needs to test for these.
Will the report and the EIA deem the sediment safe for humans, wildlife, and the environment? Because we cannot risk doing untold damage to our ecosystem and threatening the viability of some of the world's top beaches, like Rhossili, Three Cliffs bay and Rest bay. We need openness and transparency. Once dumping starts, who can tell whether that will open the doors for excessive dumping of greater amounts, larger than suggested? I fully support the petitioners and thank them once again for what they are doing to protect Wales's marine environment. Diolch yn fawr.

I call on the Minister for Environment, Energy and Rural Affairs, Lesley Griffiths.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Thank you very much for the opportunity to respond to the debate today, which follows a petition calling on the Welsh Government to demand an EIA in respect of Hinkley. Firstly, like the Chair of the Petitions Committee, I too would like to acknowledge the recent announcement made by EDF Energy and its intentions to conduct a full EIA to provide reassurances to members of the public on its proposed activity. Welsh waters are a shared resource and an important asset to us all. They are home to a diverse range of habitats and species and used by many to support their livelihoods. I understand the concerns surrounding the proposed disposal of marine sediment associated with the Hinkley development in Welsh waters, and I've listened very carefully to the points raised today. I can assure Members we have robust marine licensing legislation in place to ensure the environment and human health is protected against potential impacts from regulated activities at sea. Marine licensing is evidence based, and it's one of the key tools used to sustainably manage Welsh waters. The process is well established, fully supports the requirements of Welsh and UK legislation, and ensures decisions are not made contrary to international law.
As Members are aware, NRW administers and determines marine licence applications on behalf of Welsh Ministers. I am confident it acts in full compliance of its legal obligations, and it continues to act within the spirit of the previous direction, which I issued in 2018, in respect of the now-expired marine licence. NRW is providing better transparency on the marine licensing process, and Senedd Members and the public are afforded more opportunity to engage in the process, where it is appropriate to do so, in respect of this project.
The Welsh Ministers are the appeals body for marine licensing, so I must be mindful of this legal duty and not comment in detail today on the specifics of an EIA in respect of Hinkley. I can, however, talk more broadly about EIAs. By law, EIAs must be carried out by a competent person, and therefore they are typically undertaken by accredited environmental assessment practitioners. EIAs assess the likely environmental impact of an activity, both positive and negative, taking into account matters such as biodiversity and human health. The Marine Works (Environmental Impact Assessment) Regulations 2007 establish the EIA process and set out the legal grounds for reaching a decision on whether an EIA is needed and the information that must be included in the environmental statement, a document produced as part of the EIA to present its findings.
Under these regulations, NRW is both the appropriate authority and the regulator. EIA is, therefore, a technical and regulatory matter for NRW. It is not for Welsh Ministers to demand an EIA. The legal processes must be followed. I can assure Members NRW will require a robust and thorough EIA process to support an application for a marine licence, which will be subject to consultation with NRW's technical experts and with members of the public. A marine licence to dispose of marine sediment will only be granted by NRWfollowing a favourable decision on theEIA, and only if the necessary sediment testing, which will be conducted in line with international standards, determines clearly the material is safe and suitable for disposal back at sea, and poses no significant risk to environmental or human health.
Last year, I announced the publication of the Welsh national marine plan, setting out our vision for clean, healthy, safe, productive and biologically diverse seas. This is an ambitious plan that represents a major step forward in the way we manage our waters and secure a sustainable future. I am committed to ensure sustainability is at the heart of decision making and that we have a marine licensing process in Wales that is fair for all, fit for purpose, robust and transparent, with decisions based on sound science. This ensures our precious waters are clean, healthy, safe, productive and biologically diverse, now and for future generations.
Finally, as Members are aware and as Jenny Rathbone referred to, an external expert stakeholder reference group was established earlier this year, at the request of the First Minister. The group, chaired by Jane Davidson, will provide Ministers with advice on the implications of the Hinkley development on the well-being of Wales. The group has met several times and, to ensure transparency on the matters considered by the group, summaries of its discussions are published on the Welsh Government website, where terms of reference for the group and working methods are also available for anyone to view. Diolch.

I now call on Janet Finch-Saunders to reply to the debate.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I wish to thank the Minister for responding to this debate in a very comprehensive manner. I wish to thank all Members for their contributions. In concluding today's debate, I want to particularly thank the petitioners, who, once again, have raised their concerns, brought it to this Senedd and then this has found its way to a debate, where there has been ministerial intervention, there has been Member intervention, and there has been what I call very good scrutiny and challenge. But that is not the end of it yet.
This debate has enabled some very important issues to be raised, and the Petitions Committee will consider these further. But before I conclude, I want to note another important element of the openness that I spoke about earlier. Anybody who feels very concerned about these works to be carried out, I believe, should use the opportunity that will be forthcoming from what the Minister's mentioned—the stakeholder groups, the consultations. I think they, too, really do need to be part of the ongoing process so that they do feel more assured about safety—public safety and also any impact on our marine environment.
We have stressed the importance of being able to expect openness and transparency from those making decisions, and I really am hopeful and would stress that all process must be followed, a full assessment of the evidence be made before any decision is taken, and that when those assessments are made and the decisions are made, then hopefully people will have the confidence vested in those decisions. Thank you. Diolch.

The proposal is to note the petition. Does any Member object? Are there any objections?

No, I see no objection.

Therefore the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

We will now take a short break before we move to item 8. A short break.

Plenary was suspended at 16:39.

The Senedd reconvened at 16:45, with David Melding in the Chair.

David Melding AC: Order. Order. The Senedd is back in session.

8. Plaid Cymru Debate: The future of education

The following amendments have been selected: amendments 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9 in the name of Darren Millar. In accordance with Standing Order 12.23(iii), amendment 10 tabled to the motion has not been selected.

David Melding AC: We move to item 8: the Plaid Cymru debate on the future of education. I call on Siân Gwenllian to move the motion.

Motion NDM7440 Siân Gwenllian
To propose that the Senedd:
Calls on the Welsh Government to:
a)provide timely reassurance to pupils and teachers by making an immediate statement that examinations will not be held in Wales in summer 2021 and will instead be replaced by teacher assessment;
b)ensure young people have the skills they need for the future and are given a fair opportunity to demonstrate attainment of those skills through a reformed Welsh system of assessment and qualifications aligned to the new curriculum of Wales by scrapping outdated GCSE and A-Level examinations;
c) ensure that every pupil leaves the education system as bilingual citizens, by:
i) taking further steps to ensure the new curriculum facilitates fluency in Welsh as a norm by increasing Welsh medium education in every sector and learning phase; and
ii) committing to introducing a Deddf Addysg Gymraeg;
d)ensure every pupil has an understanding of Wales’s diverse heritage and identity by making the history of Wales, including black and people of colour history as an integral part of the history of Wales, a mandatory element in the Curriculum and Assessment Bill;
e) uphold the rights of all pupils in the Pontypridd area and elsewhere to a Welsh-medium education in their own community and within a reasonable distance to their homes by promoting widely the precedents arising from the administrative court’s judgement in Driver v. RCT County Borough Council in relation to the proper undertaking of Welsh language impact assessments in school reorganisation proposals;
f)prioritise the mental health and wellbeing of our students by ensuring the mental health and wellbeing areas of learning and expertise are given due attention in the Curriculum and Assessment Bill, and monitor medium and long-term trends in mental health provision in schools;
g)urgently, support further education students learning from home by ensuring they have access to adequate broadband provision and equipment, and urgently assess the need to safely reopen public workspaces for students who cannot work at home;
h) prevent apprentices from slipping into poverty by guaranteeing full wage protections during workplace closures, and provide additional support/guidance if they are made redundant;
i)uphold the legal rights of students by ensuring they are treated equally to the rest of the public with regards toCOVID-19 restrictions, including a guarantee that students can return home before the Christmas period with appropriate testing safeguards in place.

Motion moved.

Siân Gwenllian AC: Thank you very much. Our motion this afternoon focuses on important and timely aspects of the world of education in Wales. First of all, exams and assessments and the need for change that has been underlined by COVID and the requirements of the new curriculum, and I will expand on that in my contribution. Another important aspect is the identity and diversity of Wales. Including the history of Wales, including the history of the Welsh language, is vital for pupils the length and breadth of Wales so that they have an awareness of the national identity of Wales and the historic basis of our modern society. Even though some important aspects are mandatory elements of the new curriculum, for example relationships and sexuality education, there are some parts and groups in our society that have been forgotten. Black communities and communities of people of colour deserve status and respect in the new curriculum, and also the role of those communities in the history of modern Wales. So, we support the inclusion of people of colour and black history being part of the statutory part of the curriculum to strengthen the teaching of the identity of Wales and all of its diversity and to eradicate racism.
We will talk about apprenticeships and further education this afternoon—the need to support apprentices who are impacted in terms of employment and in terms of finance as a result of COVID-19. We will discuss the emotional and mental well-being of our young people and we will discuss the Welsh language, and the need to take further steps to ensure that the new curriculum facilitates fluency in the Welsh language as a norm by increasing Welsh-medium education in every sector and period of learning. Swansea and Rhondda Cynon Tafhave the same contribution and responsibility in the national effort as does Gwynedd and Ceredigion.
I want to turn to examinations. The examinations fiasco this summer is still very much alive in the minds of our young people. They remember that it had taken a major effort—and we in Plaid Cymru were at the heart of that effort—to get rid of the algorithm system that was going to be hugely unfair to very many young people. After deciding, entirely rightly, to cancel the examinations, there was an unnecessary step taken to use a failing mathematical formula. In the end, the Minister for Education in Wales changed her mind after a period of campaigning and the teacher assessments were used. Faith was placed in the teachers, the professionals who know our young people best, but that could have been done from the very beginning, avoiding the entire fiasco and all of the concern and anxiety caused to our young people.
Plaid Cymru has been saying since the summer that A-level examinations and GCSE examinations shouldn't be held next year either. We said that because the experts told us that there would be a second wave of the coronavirus in the autumn. We were of the opinion that making a swift decision, before the schools reopened, even, in September, would be a fair way of moving forward, and that our young people and their teachers and parents would know what to expect and what would happen, with plenty of time to change direction and to change arrangements. Teacher assessments could be used, and there would be plenty of time for a sensible approach in terms of standardisation. It's not too late to do that, and we are continuing to press for the cancellation of the examinations next year, and there is increasing pressure coming from all corners for that by now. We hope that there will be a decision made on 9 November, which is the date mentioned or mooted for the decision to be announced. I very much hope that the Minister for Education won't follow England slavishly again, and that we will have the right decision for the people of Wales.
As the virus spreads and as the situation intensifies, pupils are missing school because they're self-isolating, and it impacts on their education and the continuity. Exam-age pupils are going to lose more of their education during the firebreak, on top of the education lost during the full lockdown. Some young people are going to lose more than one period of education, with these periods taking place at different times in different schools and different colleges, with different young people losing out on different pieces of work. And yet, everyone sitting the same exam.
Doing the work remotely isn't possible for many. There are many who still don't have an electronic device, who don't have broadband connectivity and they don't have the space and the quiet in their homes to do the work, which often means that it's those children from the poorer backgrounds who lose out and who are left behind, and that isn't fair.
There is an alternative method of assessing progression, which would include continuous assessment and teacher assessments. It's not as if there is no alternative but exams; there is an alternative and the sooner the better to decide on that alternative. We need to get rid of the uncertainty and give fair play to everyone.
And in the longer term, we need to get rid of the Government obsession with examinations. We need to create a system that identifies the individual's progression. The entire education system needs to shift from the emphasis on examinations and certificates, and ensure that our young people have the right skills for the world of work and for life in future.
The Curriculum for Wales does provide some of the answer, but the whole system needs to be changed. This includes rethinking qualifications and assessments, starting with a meaningful discussion about GCSEs. Do we need a qualification at all for young people of the age of 16, when the vast majority of them remain in education? We need to move from one exam, which is the same for everyone and gives a grade on a basis that doesn't measure the right skills. The Curriculum for Wales has the ability, if rooted correctly, to move the emphasis on to skills. The way that we assess has to be aligned to the new curriculum or it won't work, and schools will continue to focus on the grades, rather than the progress made by the individual.
We have a genuine opportunity to create an excellent educational system in Wales, one that doesn't leave any child or young person behind. The curriculum does provide an opportunity for us to start on that journey. We need to scrutinise the Bill in detail over the next few months, ensuring that the curriculum will genuinely be fit for purpose in the modern Wales. And it needs to be supported with resources and meaningful training, and assessment methods need to change too.
Our children and young people are our future; they are the future of our nation. They're not having an easy time of it at the moment, but there will be better times ahead. We, in the Senedd, need to give all support to them in this COVID period, but also by ensuring that the seeds that we are sowing now to revolutionise our education system—that those seeds grow into robust plants and grow in the right direction. I look forward to hearing everybody's contributions in this important debate.

David Melding AC: Nine amendments have been selected to the motion. And I call on Suzy Davies to move amendments 1 to 9, tabled in the name of Darren Millar.

Amendment 1—Darren Millar
Delete sub-points (a) and (b) and replace with:
'take all steps to ensure that pupils in Wales have the opportunity to sit general and vocational exams this school year, including if the school year is extended;
set a date by which a decision must be made on whether exams will go ahead, with such dates allowing for a credible and robust system of externally moderated centre assessment grades to be implemented instead;'

Amendment 2—Darren Millar
Delete sub-point (c)(i) and replace with:
'introducing a Welsh language continuum code to assist practitioners to deliver the aim of improving fluency through the curriculum;'

Amendment 3—Darren Millar
Insert as new sub-point (c)(ii) and renumber accordingly:
'abiding by the judgment in Driver v. RCT County Borough Council;

Amendment 4—Darren Millar
Insert as new sub-point after point (c) and renumber accordingly:
'ensure young people have the skills they need for the future and are given a fair opportunity to demonstrate attainment of those skills through an improved system of assessment and general qualifications aligned to the new curriculum of Wales and via access to courses leading to recognised vocational qualifications;'

Amendment 5—Darren Millar
Delete sub-point (e) andrenumber accordingly.

Amendment 6—Darren Millar
Insert as new sub-point after sub-point (g) and renumber accordingly:
'better reflect the recommendations of the Mind Over Matter report and the observations of the Children’s Commissioner in delivery of the curriculum, and monitor outcomes;'

Amendment 7—Darren Millar
Delete sub-point (h) and renumber accordingly.

Amendment 8—Darren Millar
Add as new points at end of motion:
Recognises the disruption caused to pupils’ education by the Welsh Government's response to COVID-19.
Recognises the commitment and flexibility of all staff delivering education during the COVID-19 pandemic.

Amendment 9—Darren Millar
Insert as new sub-point at end of motion:
'make an urgent statement on the support provided to apprentices and trainees.'

Amendments 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9 moved.

Suzy Davies AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Can I apologise for so many amendments? But thank you for selecting them. But, of course, we wanted to show respect to the original motion, which had a lot of information in it. Perhaps less a portmanteau motion and more of a packing trunk, which is going to take rather a number of burly stevedores to lift it off the ground, so I hope we've all been eating our spinach to get through this one.
Siân, we really do share some of your concerns about the future of education, and that's why we look forward to the new curriculum and some of the other Government reforms, with hope, but no little trepidation. But there is a difference, I think, between much-needed innovation, and recklessness.The emergency action taken as a result of the tumultuous summer that we've had shouldn't have any status as proof of the worth of an exam-free way forward. We've gritted our teeth and accepted that the continuing disruption to pupils' education may well warrant a narrowing of the syllabus, but that is precisely to allow for exams to proceed without diminishing their robustness. However, we also recognise that the Welsh Government response to COVID could introduce a tipping point, beyond which preparing for exams in a way that is fair to everyone could become impossible.
And so I regret that secondary schools are not fully open during this national lockdown. Every single council leader wanted them open, as we heard earlier, and the decision potentially brings that tipping point a little nearer, at the same time as taking no account of the other cumulative effects of prolonged school absence. On October 15, just 83.7 per cent of pupils were attending school; this is the result, in part, of these huge school groups being sent home—that has to stop. We already know that Welsh children received less tuition during lockdown than children elsewhere in the UK, and we've all heard the voices of families, and you'll have heard the voice of the Children's Commissioner for Wales. So, I really hope this tipping point doesn't actually come, but should Welsh schools need to switch to a plan B, the judgment as to when to do that should be based on testimony from teachers and young people, not just Qualifications Wales, but made in that time frame referred to in the amendment.
Schools like businesses need certainty; that's my point on this. But certainty is not the same as throwing in the towel as the SNP has done by scrapping exams. We are very interested in bringing exams up to date and able to capture the best from our young people, by recognising that we don't all learn in the same way, and that's what our amendment 4 is about, and you'll notice that it makes specific reference to vocational courses and qualifications. Because Qualifications Wales may well be working on new versions of these, made in Wales, but the new curriculum—the outset is about flexibility to match aptitude, and so pupils will need a right to access courses outside school and try for recognised qualifications, which may not have been made in Wales, at least in this medium term. And they should have that right until they're 18.
I think you're right, Plaid, to raise the issue of apprenticeships, but I think this one deserves a debate on its own, to be honest, and a detailed response from the economy Minister, hence our amendment to this motion on that. But we have no intention of putting Welsh pupils at a disadvantage as compared to their peers elsewhere, and that does include England. We need to overcome the disadvantage, which is already there, by raising standards, before we quarrel about how to prove that those standards have been raised.
Moving on, I wonder if I could just invite Members to accept our amendment on the Driver case, on the grounds of sheer simplicity? Things have moved on since the deselection of amendment 10, but could I also invite you to consider the view of the Welsh Language Commissioner that, if we are to have young people leaving school proficient in at least two languages, the teaching workforce needs to be equipped to deliver this? And we know that we are struggling to get teachers who can teach Welsh and teach through the medium of Welsh, and however well these skills become embedded in teachers' training in the future, it's the current workforce that will be delivering the new curriculum. Many are going to need maximum support to do this with confidence, and any targets and any new Deddf addysg will be any empty aspiration if our teachers don't have the means of complying. A supportive continuum needs to accompany the curriculum to help anxious teachers get started on this, before they become more anxious about a Bill that is inevitably going to be more about the stick than the carrot.
Finally, Dirprwy Lywydd, well done Minister for making some modest progress on 'Mind over matter' recommendations. Health certainly needs to pick up pace on this as well, and I'm hoping that that will be reflected in the decision today. Members will know that we support other points in the motion, but I think considerable support for a higher profile for mental health in the education system as we move forward is pretty essential, not in the curriculum, and for teachers and educators as well as those who are being educated. Thank you.

David Melding AC: Amendment 10, tabled in the name of Siân Gwenllian, was not selected, in accordance with Standing Order 12.23. Delyth Jewell.

Delyth Jewell AC: Diolch, Lywydd dros dro. I think we're all liable to forget how difficult it can be to be a young person. There are so many pressures that society places on the young—yes exams, but also stresses and expectations about what they should look like, body image ideals permeated by adverts and Instagram, bullying, and pressure to get the right career placement or make the right decision on their Universities and Colleges Admissions Service form.
Growing up in our society is hard enough as it is, but this year, away from their friends and a normal school routine, our young people will have faced unprecedented strain and loneliness. Over the summer, 17 and 18-year-olds went through needless anxiety when they were told that an algorithm would be the best way of determining their future, even though that algorithm punished people for living in poor areas—an algorithm that placed a ceiling over their heads.
I was glad that the Welsh Government u-turned on that disastrous decision, and that young people were given their futures back. But we have to learn a lesson from what happened. That mistake cannot be repeated, and that is why our motion today is calling for a guarantee that examinations will not be held next year and will be replaced by a robust teacher assessment process. This is vital for the next few months.
But, as Plaid's shadow Minister for the future, I think that we need to assess what we want our children to get out of school. As the future generations commissioner has pointed out, skills like creativity, problem-solving and emotional intelligence will be even more important in the future because we'll likely have to work longer and adapt skill sets more rapidly. We need to find better ways of nurturing these skills that are transferrable instead of just awarding static finite marks on a piece of paper.
Is it really fair to give a mark to a 16-year-old that can either open doors or forever close them? Surely, education should be about linking children to their community and other generations, because learning has a social impact too. This week, Members from across this Senedd will be launching a new cross-party group on inter-generational solidarity, and I think that this is an area that our politics will have to return to.
Away from exams, our motion today speaks to the myriad pressures that our young people face. At the end of August, a report was published that asked children in 35 countries about how they felt about the future and themselves. The children in Wales had some of the lowest scores in terms of happiness. Worst of all, those sobering results weren't taken this year, during the pandemic, but two years ago. I dread to think how much worse the outlook could be if those same young people were surveyed today.
When the report was published, I wrote an open letter to the young people of Wales, saying that we shouldn't just note the findings, shake our heads and move on. They should shame us all. Young people are our future. They are our guiding light. It should stop us in our tracks that those young people's outlook on their own futures is so bleak, and we should act to change this.
Llywydd dros dro, our motion today is calling for mental health support, for counselling and therapy services to be made available for every school in Wales. Our motion also calls for well-being to be an essential part of the curriculum. Lessons in school shouldn't just be designed around academic achievement, but should build young people's resilience and foster those young people's connections to their communities. Just as importantly, school should be about finding and feeling joy.

Delyth Jewell AC: Our motion goes further. It deals with the content of the curriculum itself, stating that every pupil should have an understanding of the identity and history of Wales and the diverse stories that come together to create our nation. And our motion seeks to give a right to the children of Wales to learn through the medium of Welsh. This year, the children and young people of Wales have had to face real concerns and stresses. In passing this motion, our Senedd will show our commitmentto their well-being, to their development, and to their future. I hope that other Members will feel as I do.

Jenny Rathbone AC: I think this is an exercise in how not to write a motion, because it's so full of grandiose statements and hyperbole, but nothing about the complexity of the current situation that schools are facing, and also, I think, pre-empting the work of our colleagues on the children and young people's committee. So, as a set of proposals, it covers at least four different subjects—it's hard to know where to start. Nevertheless, Suzy Davies and Delyth Jewell have both made some important points, which need to be considered by the children and young people's committee, but I really think the motion itself doesn't do justice to either party, because the amendments don't really clear it up. I think that we clearly have to give priority to the mental well-being of young people in the new curriculum, because we know that many young people have suffered profoundly as a result of the lockdown, and we need to really ensure that this doesn't happen going forward.
I visited the school where I'm a governor—the secondary school where I'm a governor—in my constituency today, and I was really impressed by the arrangements made at St Teilo's for the well-being of students and for staff. I thought the plans were exemplary, and each of the teachers move classroom rather than the pupils, as is normal in secondary school, but that enables each class within each year group to be in separate bubbles. So, each year group has its own separate section of the building with its own outdoor play area, and each classroom has the windows open so that there's proper ventilation. Year 7 has no difficulty in following any of this, because this is pretty much a continuation of what happens in primary school. Year 8—there was some very dedicated learning and excellent teaching going on, and what happens in year 8 is that there is an achievement officer who sits in the corridor outside these eight classrooms, and she is available to supervise any of the reasons why a pupil is leaving the classroom during a lesson, and is also available to talk to pupils about things that may be worrying them and which could be getting in the way of their learning. I spoke to a 13-year-old who said she liked the new arrangements, as it made it easier for her to meet up with her friends during the mid-morning and lunch break, as they're not all being dispersed into different sections of what is quite a large school.
I was particularly struck by the amended learning arrangements for young people who are finding it very difficult to follow the full secondary curriculum, and many of the pupils I went to see who are having a much more intense ratio of teachers to pupils said they much preferred this system of teaching rather than being in a classroom of 20 to 30 pupils. Clearly, it's much more expensive if you have more adults to the ratio of pupils—that is much more expensive. But I was also very impressed by the way in which the headteacher was approaching the well-being of his staff as well, and particular arrangements have been put in place for those members of staff who were finding living through this pandemic a very worrying experience. It's difficult to predict who's going to be badly affected by this, but they were very sensitive arrangements—changing of people's timetables, amending of people's hours—to ensurethat those people didn't simply go off on sick and then you've got to bring in supply teachers, which increases the risk. One of the other things that's really important for all schools to ensure is happening is that any pupil who has been identified as needing a test is simply not allowed back into school until they've had a test and it's proved to be negative. And where it's been proved to be positive—and it's only happened in a very few cases—the headteacher has already done the risk assessment arrangements behind that individual child so that they know exactly what action needs to be taken as a result of that positive test.
So, I think that this school is running a very safe ship. I like the wording of the relevant amendment—I think it's amendment 8 of the Conservatives' amendments—but I think it would be wrong to assume that all schools are managing this very strange situation in as good a way as St Teilo's is doing, and I wonder what role Estyn and the consortiums are playing to ensure that all schools have really robust risk assessment and teaching and learning plans to ensure that all our pupils are learning as well as possible in these very strange circumstances that we're all living under.
Lastly, I just want to say—

David Melding AC: Dai—. No, no—

Jenny Rathbone AC: Okay.

David Melding AC: You're well over six minutes. Dai Lloyd.

Dai Lloyd AC: Thank you very much. In this debate, I'm going to focus on Welsh-medium education and experience as the former chair of the governing body of Ysgol Gynradd Gymraeg y Login Fach in Waunarlwydd, Swansea, with 250 pupils and 92 per cent of them coming from non-Welsh-speaking homes. It's likely that the lack of action taken and lack of any meaningful response to Professor Sioned Davies's 'Un iaith i bawb' report that crystallises the insufficient progress that has been made in the field of Welsh-medium education since devolution. It was said to the Government back in 2013 that it was the eleventh hour and that action should be taken to create one continuum of learning and one qualification for all with regard to the Welsh language urgently, so that more young people weren't left behind in terms of fluency in both of their national languages.
There are hard questions to be asked in terms of how we've continued with this deficient system for seven years without taking action. And the education department of the Welsh Government has a great deal to answer for, but the same department has equally complex questions to answer in looking forward, in terms of how a piece of proposed legislation that, according to Aled Roberts, endangers the status of the Welsh language, that makes English a mandatory element of the curriculum, undermining Welsh-medium education and that militates against the Welsh language strategy of the Government itself—those are his words—has made its way out of the virtual doors of Cathays Park at all, not to mention begun its parliamentary journey.
Now, another thing that will be harmful to the vision for the future is the lack of appreciation and growth of what we have already. Swansea council closed Ysgol Gynradd Gymraeg Felindre in my region, contrary to Welsh language standards, selling the school at an auction in London and raising two fingers to the Welsh Language Commissioner's ruling in terms of the lack of consideration given to the Welsh language.
Now, in a similar recent case, a group from Rhondda Cynon Taf took the council to court with regard to Ysgol Gynradd Gymraeg Pont Sion Norton and other schools, and they won their case, which shows the strength of feeling with regard to Welsh education. The judgment made by Justice Fraser is a major step forward in terms of the expectation of courts that local authorities give due regard to the Welsh language in making decisions, and safeguards other communities. According to the court judgment, only 10 per cent of the impact assessment with regard to closing Ysgol Pont Sion Norton focused on the impact on the Welsh language. And the council, in trying to challenge the basis of the judgment, are continuing to fail to accept that increasing Welsh-medium school places on a county basis doesn't provide redress for withdrawing the provision in one community, which means that pupils there could have been lost forever to Welsh-medium education, as said in the judgment.
Now, I endorse what Siân Gwenllian said yesterday to Jeremy Miles —that it's a disgrace for any local authority to be challenging the judgment on this basis and the precedents arising from it. The Government needs to give a clear statement that they won't be supporting the appeal on this basis, and instead of trying to undermine the case, they should be promoting the result.
Jeremy Miles mentioned yesterday that the Government was considering the impact of the judgment—the impact on councils such as Swansea and Rhondda that are continuing to hinder the efforts to grow Welsh-medium education. But if 1 million Welsh speakers is a genuine ambition for the Government, then it should welcome the positive impact and the rising expectations resulting from this court case in terms of considering the impact of decisions on the Welsh language in a meaningful and comprehensive manner. We need to see this as a positive decision for the communities of Wales, for Welsh-medium education and for the power of the people.
So, to conclude, remembering Felindre, we support parents, teachers, pupils and the communities of Pontypridd in their campaign for education and the Welsh language, because the campaign in Pontypridd is a campaign for the whole of Wales and crystallises the choice for the Welsh Government: support the significant step forward for Welsh-medium education or support county councils that are undermining efforts to create the million Welsh speakers. Thank you.

David Rees AC: Before I move on to the issues in relation to the motion, can I put on record my thanks to the staff of our education system, who have worked tirelessly throughout the pandemic and the lockdown, and particularly our teachers? They faced difficult challenges at that point in time and they stepped up to the plate and actually delivered for our young people and ensured that learning could take place. I think this also reflects the fact that, in Wales, we have an education system that actually had a digital identity, and, with the Hwb system in place, pupils were able to develop their skills at home, through the support of the teachers who were working in the classrooms. I praise them for all the work they've done and the work they've done since.
I also want to talk about the motion now, and I think I agree with Suzy Davies: this motion is so wide, it actually doesn't do justice to the various components within it. We can only focus upon one element, usually, in a motion and there are so many elements in that motion, I think there's too big a scope to actually have a single issue on.
But I want to focus on the examination system. I agree with Members who have indicated the challenges that young people faced in the summer and the difficulties they had when they were awaiting the results, because they weren't clear as to whether that algorithm would work or not, and when the results came out, what happened beyond that, and we mustn't let that happen again. That was something that we should learn lessons from and make sure it doesn't happen again.
Now, where we do have an advantage is that the majority of individuals who were facing examinations in that summer had completed their courses, mostly, by the time the lockdown came, so their knowledge and their understanding of the subject material had been completed—near enough. Maybe some hadn't got that far yet. This year's situation is different because the students who are possibly facing examinations next summer are not in the same position. They would have lost some teaching in June and July that they would have had in the lower sixth or in year 10, and they're also having a slight disruption now. So, we know in advance that the material and the knowledge and the competencies and the skills are not going to be, possibly, to the level we would expect them to be by the time examinations would come in normal circumstances, and we have to reflect upon that.
Now the question that then comes is: are examinations the solution or are other mechanisms the solution? I have raised the question before of whether we should look at a moderated approach to teacher assessments. I'll take both options here, acting Presiding Officer. If we go down an examination route and the examinations have to be held—and we await the Minister's decision on this—then we must ensure that the examinations reflect the abilities and the knowledge that students have gained in that time. Because we might have a syllabus, but not every school will deliver that syllabus in the same order or the same manner, and therefore you cannot guarantee that a pupil will be at the same level of knowledge and understanding to answer questions in the examination next summer, the way we are at the moment. So, there's a very serious question: if we are having exams, what will those exams actually look like and what will they be assessing?
If we're going to go to a moderated assessment approach, then we must make the decision quickly because teachers and pupils need to understand how they will be assessed for their grades, and that's critical. I'm happy to give Plaid Cymru my experience of having done it. I've taught at all those levels: GCSE up to Master's degrees, at every level. I've also moderated and examined at levels along those lines as well. And it's different from teaching it, assessing it and moderating it, and the experiences need to be understood if we are going to do that. To put moderation in place, we need to be acting quickly, because teachers need to know how they've put things together, they need to have their methods of assessment, the assessment marking schemes, they need to have sample coursework, they need to be sent off to some examiners to be moderated. There's a whole process that has to be put in place, and that can't be done in the last few weeks of the year; it needs to be done sooner rather than later. So, I agree that if we are moving to teacher assessment, the sooner the better, so I'm looking forward to the announcement in the week starting 9 November to get that. I very much welcome the education Minister's commitment to give it that early.
But, I also reflect upon the comments from the Plaid Cymru spokesperson when she opened the debate, about where we go with assessments and where we go with examinations. I think it's very easy to make wide-ranging statements that we need to have a change, but that change takes time, and that change needs people to go with you. You need the pupils, society, businesses, the education system, universities and colleges to go with you on that change, and not just from our nation, but from all nations in the UK and nations across Europe, because everyone recognises those types of qualifications. If we want our young people to be able to work in the world beyond Wales, then we must ensure that the world beyond Wales recognises what we are assessing and the qualifications they will come out with. That is not a short-term picture; it's a long-term situation to be able to get that, and if you don't believe me, try looking at how the Welsh bac was accepted by universities in the last few years. I can tell you from when I was working in that sector that it had difficulty initially to get recognition, particularly from some of the top universities. We need to ensure that everyone comes with us. Grandiose statements, fine, but the reality is far more complicated and far more complex. So, if you are looking to ensure that our young people have a strong future, have a place where they can go anywhere in the world—

David Melding AC: Okay, thank you, David. I was hoping you were coming to a natural conclusion, but I'm not so sure now, but you are over six minutes. Mandy Jones—

David Rees AC: I will close on a very simple point—

David Melding AC: No—

David Rees AC: I do believe that there is a strong future for young people in Wales. I do believe this curriculum gives them an opportunity, and I do believe that we—

David Melding AC: Can the operator please mute David Rees now? Mandy Jones.

Mandy Jones AC: Diolch, Deputy Llywydd. I'd like to start by paying tribute to all of our young people. Their lives, perhaps more than any of ours, have been turned upside down by lockdown. They've not seen their friends, they've had their usual routines taken away, they've had to get used to different ways of learning, of living and of being, and those doing exams this year have had a particular set of worries, and while I'm glad the UK had a common approach with teacher assessments, I see that other countries carried on with the examinations that were scheduled, either in whole or in part. I am deeply concerned that students across the UK this year didn't get the education to which they are entitled and didn't have the satisfaction of completing exams that they had prepared for for a year or more. I do, though, have grave concerns about an early decision on teacher assessments for 2021, although I acknowledge that this year's situation across the UK must not be repeated.
The focus of my remarks today will be on standards. I understand that the Minister will be making an announcement before or during half-term week about plans for exams for summer 2021, and yet, in England, they say they intend to run exams, maybe later and maybe amended, but there is a clear signal that they will go ahead. So, I would like to express my serious concerns about the reduction in the A-level gold standard in Wales if no exams take place next year and they do go ahead in England. This may lead to inevitable discrepancies in rigour, parity of esteem, level of demand and the standard of Wales's A-levels, and they may be perceived by UCAS, Russell Group universities and future employers to be of a lower standard than those taken by students in England. These are serious implications if Welsh students apply to English universities in particular, and there is a very real risk that their submissions to higher education institutions will suffer as a result of perceived lower A-level standards in Wales compared to A-level students in England.
I can foresee a time when we become comfortable with teacher assessments and sleepwalk into a situation where exams are left in the past. I read today that Philip Blaker of Qualifications Wales suggests a performance experience—a phrase that, at this point, I would suggest will hardly instil confidence in anyone with an interest in this subject. I think that that would be a slippery slope. Higher and further education will probably involve some sort of exam process, and Welsh learners will be greatly disadvantaged. I also have real worries about educational standards. Let's remember that Welsh education lags behind the rest of the UK, certainly according to PISA, so I fear that the necessary rigour to give Welsh kids any chance of competing with their peers across the UK will certainly be lost. And how will we know, and how can we give assurance to employers and higher education establishments that a Welsh education is at the same level as that of other UK nations and/or the rest of the world if we move away from an accepted examination process that allows for some sort of comparison?
I certainly agree with your point on broadband. It's 2020, and yet still areas of Wales, including my own, suffer dreadful broadband speeds. We hear stories of people standing by windows and walking down the road. I've had to do that myself. Broadband really does need to be prioritised as the next utility for learners, and all of us.
It is a matter of deep regret to me, and should be to everyone in this Chamber, that Wales's education standards lag behind the rest of the UK, let alone the world, according to PISA. I fear that any moves to move away from a system of exams to 'a performance experience' will compound any negative connotations around Welsh education.
As is often the case with Plaid motions for debate, this one just asks for too much and stretches the boundaries of devolution by stepping into welfare, so I'm not able to support it as a whole. Some of the points in this motion are certainly in the 'nice to have' bracket; however, parents and learners should still have a choice to learn through the medium of Welsh or not. The Conservative amendments do appear to be more grounded in reality, so I will be supporting those today. Thank you.

Gareth Bennett AC: Diolch, Gadeirydd, a diolch i Blaid Cymru, for bringing today's debate. The Abolish the Welsh Assembly Party will not be supporting the motion today. This motion by Plaid purports to be about giving young people in Wales a better future, but what its outcome would be if Plaid got their way could be precisely the opposite. I have seldom seen a motion whose outcome would so transparently and so obviously negate the purpose of that motion. Whether this is just Plaid's crass stupidity or whether the atrocious effects of their aspirations are actually entirely deliberate, I do not know.
The obvious thread running through their various points is the downgrading of education standards in Wales. It is so obvious that I almost suspect that it is being done deliberately. A consistent theme is that they want us to have different exams and standards from those in England, so the outcome would be that the attainment levels of Welsh school pupils cannot be measured against those in England. Therefore, as Welsh standards continue to go down, as they have been going down over the past 20 years, we won't be able to see that they're going down because we will no longer be able to measure how our school pupils are doing against how school pupils are doing next door in England. This will let Welsh education Ministers off the hook, as they can make false claims that Welsh standards are in fact going up, but the truth will undoubtedly be the opposite.
The proof of the pudding is in the eating. If English universities cannot easily measure the ability of Welsh pupils against English ones, then are we going to get more of our bright pupils into the top English universities, or fewer of them? If employers at big companies in England—in London, in Manchester and other major cities—if they are not going to be able to easily measure the qualifications of young Welsh people against their contemporaries from England, then are more Welsh youngsters going to get into these well-paid jobs in England, or fewer? I think I know the likely answer.
This idea of a new Welsh curriculum diverging totally from that in England is simply a ruse so that Welsh education Ministers are less accountable to parents in Wales and so that falling standards can be more easily disguised. The obvious clue to Plaid's intentions lies in their opening point, where they ask the Welsh Government to guarantee that exams won't be held next summer. Any sensible party would be asking the Welsh Government to do their utmost to make sure that exams do go ahead, but Plaid want the opposite. In Plaid's ideal world, there would be no exams at all, it seems, and all pupils would be graded according to what teacher says. But we know that, back in the real world, most students are desperate to sit exams next year, because they don't want to go through the utter fiasco we had this summer, when grades were given out according to teacher assessments and those awful algorithms that have been referred to. But Plaid today want to condemn more pupils to go through a similar shambles again.
Can I state a few simple facts of political life to Plaid Cymru? Wales has always benefited economically from its close relationship with England. Most of the economic development of Wales has been through interaction with England, through trading with England, through English investment into Wales, and through generation after generation of Welsh people trying to better themselves by seeking opportunities, sometimes in England. But Plaid want to close all this off. They want an independent state, based on what kind of economy God only knows, in which the key to attainment is that everyone in Wales will eventually speak Welsh. The rest of the world is desperate to learn English because of the obvious economic benefits of learning English. One advantage we have in Wales is that we have the English language, but Plaid want to downgrade the importance of English so that we can all speak Welsh.
After more than 20 years of devolution, Wales suffers from relatively low wages. Welsh Labour Governments have done absolutely nothing to change this. We now have the weakest economy of the UK's four nations, but Plaid aren't even trying. They want to wall us off from England and condemn future generations of Welsh people to poverty and lack of career prospects. But it will be okay, because all the poor people of Wales will be able to speak Welsh. You couldn't make it up. Diolch yn fawr iawn i chi i gyd.

David Melding AC: I call on the Minister for Education, Kirsty Williams.

Kirsty Williams AC: Presiding Officer, I think you might just have called me, but I'm not hearing any feed from your desk, so if you just did—. If somebody could nod or help me out, because I can't hear.

David Melding AC: Yes.

Kirsty Williams AC: Great. Perfect. Thank you. I'm so sorry, I'm just not hearing the Presiding Officer's feed whatsoever.
Can I begin, Presiding Officer, by saying that I would usually open my remarks on a debate like this by thanking whatever party has tabled the debate for doing so? However, I have to be honest, it's a little bit difficult to know where to start today with Plaid's motion. It covers so many different and sometimes completely unrelated issues that none of them can be seriously debated in a worthwhile way in such a short period of time, which is a real shame, because the separate elements are, indeed, worthy of debate. But it does remind me of the advice that, when you have too many priorities, you effectively have none, and I'm sorry to say that, in a way, this motion today falls into that category. And for these reasons, we will be voting against the motion as a whole today.Can I, though, say that I congratulate the Conservatives for their Herculean effort in trying to amend what feels like, almost, an unamendable motion? But I will, acting Presiding Officer, try to cover at least some of the issues raised in the motion this afternoon.
I am acutely aware of how difficult this period has been for everyone involved in education, both staff and learners alike. But we have taken a number of measures to mitigate the effects of the pandemic. You will all be aware of the tough decisions that we've had to take in recent days to implement the short firebreak over the coming weeks, and we have tried our best to keep disruption to a minimum. We will be issuing guidance on our expectations for learning over this period. For learners in exam years, our overriding priority is to ensure that they are equipped with the knowledge, skills and qualifications that they need to progress into the next phase of their education or their training or employment, which is why, building on the resources already made available to schools, we have made an additional £3.2 million of capital funding available to further education and adult learning at the end of this summer. This funding will help our FE institutions to support learners to continue learning remotely at home. I know that online learning is not appropriate for every course or for every learner, and I expect colleges and schools to ensure that they respond to individual learner circumstances wherever possible.

Kirsty Williams AC: With regard to exams and assessment, I want to be certain that the decisions that we make now are in the best interests of all learners, and that means making sure that we do indeed learn the lessons from 2020. Unlike the Westminster Government, I have established an independent review to help us learn those lessons and to provide recommendations for how qualifications are assessed in 2021. Qualifications Wales will also be providing further advice about how assessment should be completed in 2021, given the continuing disruption of COVID-19 to those exam classes' education. I will look at both pieces of advice and then will make a decision immediately after the half-term break. I think it's important that that decision is taken whilst children are in school so that they can have the appropriate levels of support and information and conversations with their teachers.
Can I just say, acting Presiding Officer—? When Gareth Bennett makes the accusations that he does about standards in Welsh education and entrance to top-level universities, in 2019, Welsh students gained more top-level A-level results that any other part of the United Kingdom. We have record numbers of students applying successfully to read medicine, veterinary science, engineering at our very top universities. Our Seren programme has ensured that if you are a comprehensive-educated child in Wales, you are more likely to receive an offer from Cambridge university than anywhere else in the United Kingdom. And when you consider the challenges faced in some of our communities of ingrained poverty, that is no mean feat at all. And rather than denigrate Welsh teachers and students here this afternoon, we should thank them for their huge efforts in achieving those issues. Goodness, 'perish the thought' he said. Well, perish the thought that we should be a nation that wants to ensure that all of our children and young people can leave their education system speaking both languages. Perish the thought to have a Member in this place that doesn't see the value in having and creating an education system that allows our children to be bilingual. I think that's much more surprising than anything else that I've heard this afternoon.
Now, I also know that schools are concerned at this time about progressing the curriculum. We have recently published 'Curriculum for Wales: the journey to 2022'. While this shared expectation document doesn't require action at this time, it does provide clear direction towards curriculum reform. Publishing these expectations is an important milestone towards curriculum change, but, of course, under the current circumstances, schools should only use these to support their planning processes when their staff and learners are ready. We're also continuing to work on the content of the curriculum, and I'm clear that it should encompass the breadth of experiences and histories that make up Wales, and that's why we've appointed Professor Charlotte Williams OBE to lead a working group to advise and improve the teaching of themes related to black, Asian and minority ethnic communities and experiences, not just in history, but in all parts of the school curriculum.
Turing to Welsh-medium education, I can assure Members that I am fully committed to ensuring linguistic continuity from pre to post-16. Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol's post-16 plan details the short, medium and long-term actions required to make this a reality. Work has started on strategic projects in health and social care, childcare and public services to establish sound provision and to develop a network of support for tutors and commission resources specifically to embed Welsh-medium provision for our learners. In the apprenticeship sector, more Welsh-medium assessor training is being provided, and the success of the Welsh language awareness e-learning module, Prentis-Iaith, is way beyond our expectations. The colegis also developing the HE infrastructure, providing academic grants to universities in STEM, health and social care, and social sciences, to name but a few. I'm also working to achieve a common understanding of the expected linguistic outcomes of learners. A review of current school definitions was undertaken last year, and I will be consulting on new non-statutory arrangements around school designations shortly.
But, of course, learning is not just about exams or the curriculum. The mental health and well-being of our learners particularly during this time is of primary importance. Consultation on the whole-school approach to emotional well-being framework guidance ended in September, and we intend to publish the final version of the framework towards the end of the year or in early January. This statutory guidance will support local authorities and schools in meeting their own well-being needs in a consistent and holistic fashion that promotes equity of access. It's also an important tool in tackling the short, medium and long-term response to COVID-19 by addressing the well-being needs of children and young people.
Acting Presiding Officer, mitigating the impact of this pandemic has been a major focus for me and this Welsh Government and we've worked closely with the sector to provide guidance and support to ensure that COVID-secure education can be delivered, and I'm extremely grateful to everyone for the way in which they have worked to ensure that learning has continued. Jenny Rathbone's contribution just highlighted perfectly the hard work that has been going on in our schools, our colleges and our universities.
We have strong foundations in place, and working together, we are determined to continue to raise standards, to reduce the attainment gap, and to deliver an education system that is a source of national pride and public confidence, and we're doing all of that in the face of a global pandemic. And once again, I want to put on record my thanks to those professionals working in the education system who are doing everything that they possibly can in the most trying of circumstances to ensure that our national mission is reached.

David Melding AC: Thank you. Helen Mary Jones to reply to the debate.

Helen Mary Jones AC: Thank you very much, acting Presiding Officer. I'm grateful to everybody who has participated. It was indeed deliberately set to be a wide-ranging motion and it's provoked a wide-ranging debate, and I'm grateful for that.
I can't possibly respond to all the comments that have been made. I think Siân Gwenllian's points about the importance of diversity in the history of our nation were very important, and I was glad to see the Minister respond positively to that in terms of the importance of the black experience and the Welsh experience in our curriculum. The right—as the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child makes clear—of every child to their own language and culture is at the heart of what we believe an education system should be, and again, I was encouraged by what the Minister had to say about that.
Siân makes a very powerful case against examinations as a form of assessment, not only for this year, but going forward, though I would take on board—and I think we all would—the points that David Rees makes about any change in the assessment system needing to take time, it needs to be embedded, it needs to be sold efficiently. But I would argue that that, of course, is a reason to start on that work now. What is the point of having a world-beating, groundbreaking, inspiring curriculum but we assess in methods that were developed towards the middle of the nineteenth century? It makes no sense whatsoever.
I'm grateful to Suzy Davies for her contribution and for the Conservatives taking the trouble to amend what was a wide-ranging motion. It was nice that she didn't whinge about it, unlike others I could mention. Of course, we have some genuine differences of view, particularly about examinations, but I'm very glad to be able to accept amendments 3, 6 and 9, which we feel do strengthen and support the motion, and I think it is appropriate as parties across this Chamber that we do take time to address each other's motions and to do that in a fairly detailed manner.
The points that Delyth made about how difficult it can be to be young at the best of times and how hard it is now were again powerfully made, and again, she referred to children's right to their language and culture and how important it is that we all take responsibility for promoting and supporting the well-being of our children and young people.
I simply don't recognise Jenny Rathbone's characterisation of our motion. The issues facing children and young people in our country at the moment are broad and they are complex, and hence so is our motion.
Unsurprisingly, Dai Lloyd makes a very powerful case for the right for young people to receive Welsh-medium education wherever they are. He points to the failure to ensure, after 20 years of devolution, that all our young people are able to leave school speaking both our national languages. That doesn't mean they all need to be in Welsh-medium education, of course, but we make the children in English-medium education study Welsh and they don't come out fluent, and that's not acceptable. He makes a passionate case for clause (e) in our motion. As he said, the fights of the families in Pontypridd for Welsh-medium education is a fight that should be a fight for us all.
I've already referred to David Rees's contribution, which I think was well made. I obviously disagree with the points he made about the scope of the motion, but I think the points he made about the extent to which students have lost learning this year, and about how we can use moderation to ensure that teaching assessments are fair and that there is no bias built in—and I fully agree that we need to act quickly. If we are going to change assessment processes in the long term, that is a long-term process and we need to do it soon.
Mandy Jones was right to address the impact of COVID on our young people, and she was right to say we need a decision on the exams; of course we disagree with her conclusions. I don't want Welsh education to be just as good or the same as the other parts of the UK; I think we need to be ambitious and we need to make it much better.
Gareth Bennett—what can I say? Simply wrong in too many ways for me to go through, though I would associate myself with some of the comments that the Minister made in response to some of the things that he said.
So, finally, to turn to the Minister's contribution: well, I'm sorry that the breadth of our motion was too complex and too much of a challenge for her. I assume she does have civil servants who can assist her in these matters. She did—. Did she succeed in making clear to me which of the points in our motion she thinks isn't a priority? She didn't. There are some specifics I wish she had addressed, particularly the issue with regard to students being able to go home for Christmas. I don't know what other people's inbox is like, but the messages that I'm getting from students and their families—that is what they are most frightened about right now, because they want to know that there's an end, particularly those of them who are first-year students who may be in accommodation with people they don't know very well; they want to know that there's an end, and the Minister has assured us that there is going to be a plan. I hope it will be a good one, but I think she needs to come forward with that plan soon, and make it clear that those students will be able to go home to their families with proper testing around them to make sure they can do so safely.
Now, to come back to the Minister's response overall to our motion: well, we are used, of course, as opposition parties in this Chamber, to dismissive 'everything is fine—delete all' amendments. Basically, what we got from the Minister this evening, I'm afraid, was a dismissive 'everything is fine' speech. That was a little bit disappointing. A lot of what she said implied that everything is fine; a lot of the contributions we've had from others, acknowledging progress and acknowledging—and I think I do want to stress this—how hard people working in the system are working to make this right at this very difficult time, and I would say that probably goes for the Minister and her officials too—. But simply to dismiss the complex points in our motion and to react as if there are no issues that need to be addressed is a bit disappointing.
Acting Presiding Officer, I don't make any apologies for my party bringing a wide-ranging motion to this Assembly. I agree, for example, with the Conservative amendment that says that we could do with another whole debate on apprenticeships and work-based learning, and hopefully, if the Government doesn't bring one forward soon, we can make an opportunity to do that. These are huge, complex issues. They matter. And if we can't discuss them in this place, and if the Minister can't cope with having to answer so many of them at once, then something is somewhat wrong.
I commend this motion with amendments 3, 6, and 9 to the Senedd. Diolch yn fawr iawn, bawb.

David Melding AC: Thank you. The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There are Members objecting, so I will defer voting until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

David Melding AC: There will now be a break of at least five minutes to prepare for voting time, and IT support will be available.

Plenary was suspended at 17:49.
The Senedd reconvened at 17:54, with the Llywydd in the Chair.

9. Voting Time

That brings us to voting time, and the first vote this afternoon is on the debate on a Member's legislative proposal—Welsh hearts Bill. I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Alun Davies. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 38, 11 abstentions and none against. Therefore, the motion is agreed.

Item 6 - Debate on a Member's Legislative Proposal - Welsh Hearts Bill, tabled in the name of Alun Davies: For: 38, Against: 0, Abstain: 11
Motion has been agreedClick to see vote results

The next vote is on the Plaid Cymru debate on the future of education. I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Siân Gwenllian. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour nine, no abstentions and 40 against. Therefore, the motion is not agreed.

Item 8 - Plaid Cymru debate - The future of education - Motion without amendment: For: 9, Against: 40, Abstain: 0
Motion has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 1 is our next vote, and it was tabled in the name of Darren Millar. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 14, no abstentions and 35 against. Therefore, the amendment is not agreed.

Item 8 - Plaid Cymru debate - amendment 1, tabled in the name of Darren Millar: For: 14, Against: 35, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 2 is our next amendment. A vote on amendment 2, tabled in the name of Darren Millar. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 11, three abstentions and 35 against. Therefore, amendment 2 is not agreed.

Item 8 - Plaid Cymru debate - amendment 2, tabled in the name of Darren Millar: For: 11, Against: 35, Abstain: 3
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 3 next, tabled in the name of Darren Millar. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 20, three abstentions and 26 against. Therefore, amendment 3 is not agreed.

Item 8 - Plaid Cymru debate - amendment 3, tabled in the name of Darren Millar: For: 20, Against: 26, Abstain: 3
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 4 in the name of Darren Millar. Open the vote. Close the vote. No, don't close it yet. Close the vote. In favour 11, three abstentions and 35 against. Therefore, amendment 4 is not agreed.

Item 8 - Plaid Cymru Debate - amendment 4, tabled in the name of Darren Millar: For: 11, Against: 35, Abstain: 3
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 5 next, tabled in the name of Darren Millar. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 11, three abstentions and 35 against. Therefore, amendment 5 is not agreed.

Item 8 - Plaid Cymru Debate - amendment 5, tabled in the name of Darren Millar : For: 11, Against: 35, Abstain: 3
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 6 is next. I call for a vote on amendment 6, tabled in the name of Darren Millar. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 20, three abstentions, 26 against. And therefore the amendment is not agreed.

Item 8 - Plaid Cymru Debate - amendment 6, tabled in the name of Darren Millar : For: 20, Against: 26, Abstain: 3
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

The next vote is on amendment 7, again tabled in the name of Darren Millar. A vote on amendment 7. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 12, two abstentions, 35 against. And therefore, amendment 7 is not agreed.

Item 8 - Plaid Cymru Debate - amendment 7, tabled in the name of Darren Millar: For: 12, Against: 35, Abstain: 2
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 8 next, in the name of Darren Millar. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 14, nine abstentions, 26 against. Amendment 8 is not agreed.

Item 8 - Plaid Cymru debate - amendment 8, tabled in the name of Darren Millar: For: 14, Against: 26, Abstain: 9
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 9, in the name of Darren Millar. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 20, three abstentions, 26 against. Therefore, amendment 9 is not agreed.

Item 8 - Plaid Cymru debate - amendment 9, tabled in the name of Darren Millar: For: 20, Against: 26, Abstain: 3
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

As the Senedd has not agreed the motion without amendment, and has not agreed any of the amendments tabled to the motion, the motion is therefore not agreed.
That concludes voting time.

10. Short Debate: Broaden the spectrum: Adding blue to the green recovery

We have one remaining item on our agenda, which is the short debate. Today I call on Joyce Watson to speak to the topic she has chosen. I therefore call Joyce Watson to introduce the short debate.

Joyce, you need to unmute yourself or be unmuted before you start. That's it—carry on. Joyce Watson.

Joyce Watson AC: Diolch, Llywydd. The debate today is broadening the spectrum: adding blue to the green recovery, putting our seas at the heart of the green economy and post-COVID-19 social settlement. Huw Irranca, I have agreed to give a minute to.
Time and tide wait for no man or woman. We invoke the sea to describe the inevitable, and today we face three challenges that in their own way make social and economic change inevitable: coronavirus, Brexit and climate change. I want to talk about what these changes mean for Welsh waters and for the Wales national marine plan. We hear a lot about the green recovery and the green new deal, and that is fantastic, but I'm keen that, as we develop policies around those principles, we don't forget the blue, or our waters. As a peninsular nation, Wales is well placed to harness the power of our water and enjoy its benefits, as well as inherently invested in its health. As someone who represents the majority of our coastline, I'm always mindful of the fact that Wales's marine area is over a third larger than its land mass, and I'm sensitive to the view that our coastal towns and villages are not museum pieces or stage sets; they're living, working communities and the original stewards of our oceans. So, we need to broaden the spectrum, to add blue to the green recovery. Perhaps we could start calling it the 'teal new deal'.
This time last year—and it has been an even longer year in politics—the Minister published the national marine plan, which sets out the rules for sustainable use of our seas for the next 20 years. It's one of the most important documents that this Welsh Government has brought forward, and it wouldn't have happened without your determination, Minister, and I thank you for that.

David Melding took the Chair.

Joyce Watson AC: A year on would be a good time to review it in normal times, but given where we are with Brexit and the upheaval of the pandemic, and our resolve to rebuild a better future, it's imperative that we look again at marine policy and make sure that we achieve that blue-green recovery.
More recently, the Welsh Government published its 'COVID-19 Reconstruction: Challenges and Priorities', which includes commitments to respond energetically to the climate emergency, decarbonisation, to manage our land for the benefit of rural communities both now and for the future, and to protect and enhance our natural resources. It sets out a vision of a Welsh economy geared towards renewable energy supplies from wind, water and solar power. The marine energy demonstration zones will be at the heart of that, driving the skills, businesses and technologies of the future, especially as the Welsh Government has rightly rejected any and all further extractions of fossil fuels, and the Minister has been resolute about that.
Looking ahead, Minister, you've also said that you intend to progress a comprehensive Welsh fisheries Bill, separate to the one now going through the UK Parliament. That will be business for the next Welsh Parliament, but I hope that it ensures that more fish caught in Welsh waters are landed in our ports and that smaller vessels, which make up 90 per cent of the Welsh fleet, are given a bigger share of the current quota. Managing the competing demands for space and use of our natural resources is always a delicate balancing act, and that is why the national marine plan was developed in the first place.
Coronavirus, the post-pandemic recovery and the Tory 'no deal' Brexit that is in danger of being realised add new weight to the scales. Ultimately, there can be no blue-green recovery if we do not recover the health of our waters. Right now, nearly 50 per cent of protected wildlife in our seas is in poor condition. So, I would support many of the policies that the Wales Environment Link has been calling for, like ensuring that at least 10 per cent of Welsh waters are fully protected by 2030. It should include work to protect our precious blue carbon, the seagrass, the saltmarsh and the seaweed, not least because restoring intertidal and shallow subtidal habitats will yield the greatest per-unit area of benefit in terms of increased carbon sequestration. It is our national shoreline forest, if you like, and we need many more projects like Morfa Friog in Gwynedd to protect and to enhance it.
Future marine policy must also recognise the interconnectedness of effective water management. We need a truly source-to-sea approach to river and marine management. I have raised on many occasions in the Chamber, virtual and otherwise, my concerns about pollution associated with intensive chicken farming in Powys and its impact on the health of the Wye. In Pembrokeshire, I understand that nine of the 15 marine special areas of conservation features are in an unfavourable condition and that agricultural run-off contributes to eight of those cases. So, we need tougher action on agricultural pollution and the Minister has spoken forcibly about doing just that last week. And, of course, we're all very much aware of the mounting problem of marine litter.
So, to sum up, a year on from the publication of the Welsh national marine plan, now more than ever we need to boost renewable energy generation, support jobs in our coastal communities and protect wildlife as part of an ambitious blue-green, post-Brexit, post-pandemic recovery. Thank you.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: It's a pleasure to follow Joyce in this important debate in support of a blue-green recovery. I would argue strongly that we must have the data and analysis that underpins sustainable resource management, and that we should not only have marine protected areas, but some areas that are of a higher protected status and, crucially, that those MPAs are managed effectively. It's incredible now that we've got an area over nine times the size of Wales in marine protected areas around the UK, yet, around the UK, less than 1 per cent is considered by MCS scientists to be well managed. So, it's a bit like our seas—on the surface things look quite good, but below the surface we've got a lot more to do to turn MPAs on charts into MPAs in reality, and to enable that sustainable use of our marine resources in that marine planning framework. And, Minister, can I endorse the concept by the Marine Conservation Society and Wales Environment Link, and by Joyce here today, of blue carbon, where the protection and enrichment of vulnerable but valuable marine habitats can yield the greatest per-unit area benefit in terms of increased carbon sequestration? Let Wales lead a blue-green recovery.

David Melding AC: The Minister for Environment, Energy and Rural Affairs to reply to the debate—Lesley Griffiths.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you, acting Presiding Officer, and thank you, Joyce, for bringing forward this short debate about—and I quite like—that 'teal new deal', and to Huw Irranca-Davies also for his contribution. Whilst the Welsh Government continues to respond to the significant public health and economic challenges of the COVID-19 pandemic, part of that response is also the need to think and plan ahead. The Welsh Government is committed to a green recovery and, of course, the coast and seas around Wales are an integral part of our history, economy and our way of life. They support an abundance of diverse species, habitats and ecosystems and contribute millions to our economy, supporting thousands of jobs, and contribute to the health and well-being of local communities. This is why the Welsh Government has put in place a system of marine planning to help us manage and protect this important resource.
The delicate balance we need to achieve through planning and regulating new development includes enabling sustainable marine sector growth to ensure a blue recovery, with growth benefiting our coastal communities and economy whilst contributing to the protection, recovery and enhancement of the resilience of our marine ecosystems. Wales's marine planning system ensures we sustainably manage our marine resources, respecting the environment and established uses of the sea, while seeking to secure lasting benefits from new, exciting opportunities. In line with our approach to marine planning as an enabling framework for sustainable development and in support of a blue recovery, we are taking forward a spatial approach to understanding opportunities and constraints for marine renewable energy. This approach can support those who wish to progress development and help provide the confidence to do so in terms of signalling the types of activity likely to be appropriate and where, ensuring the resilience of our marine ecosystems is protected and enhanced. We are working with NRW and our stakeholders to develop sector locational guidance for some of the newer, more innovative sectors operating in Welsh seas, with a particular focus on marine renewable energy. This guidance will identify where may best accommodate new development and activity alongside existing uses and without compromising the resilience of marine ecosystems.
We recognise the link between the marine environment and our health and well-being. The Welsh national marine plan clearly highlights the importance of maintaining and enhancing access to the marine area, ensuring people are able to get to and take part in the activities and services provided by the marine environment. The plan also recognises that maintaining the health and resilience of our marine environment and ecosystems, whilst vital for nature recovery, is also integral to our health and well-being. It is the framework that allows us to bring forward the blue recovery aspect of reconstructing Wales in light of the pandemic. Indeed, with the current work under way to complete our marine protected areas network in Wales, led by the Marine Conservation Society's own task and finish group, ecosystem resilience remains at the centre of our plans. The system in Wales ensures socioeconomic benefits to local communities are given an appropriate weight in decision making. Important considerations when assessing proposed developments include the benefits they can offer to society, the creation of marine jobs and the development of marine-related skills. We have an ambitious decarbonisation agenda for Wales, and I see marine renewables forming part of the energy mix and contributing towards the blue economy and a green recovery from COVID-19, helping us tackle the climate emergency.
There is huge potential for the marine and renewable sectors to grow responsibly in Wales, and I am encouraged by the growing interest in Welsh waters. I want to see projects coming forward that support coastal communities and are designed and built with biodiversity in mind, supporting our ecosystem resilience. My officials are working in partnership through a consenting strategic advisory group to deliver a suite of actions aimed at derisking and accelerating the responsible deployment of marine renewable energy.
A sustainable future for our Welsh fisheries is an important part of blue recovery. Last month, I issued a written statement on the next steps towards a future fisheries policy for Wales. That policy will be rooted in our core values of economic, environmental and social justice. We must develop a sustainable ecosystems-based policy that works with all other marine policies. Our fisheries are valuable natural resources, and I remain fully committed to introducing evidence-based, flexible management regimes for a range of Welsh fisheries.
In July, Sir David Henshaw, chair of NRW, was asked to lead a coalition of experts to deliver practical action on a green recovery. The group Sir David is chairing is part of the work across Welsh Government to invite people with a wide range of perspectives to help shape and challenge our plans for reconstruction. The impact of the COVID-19 pandemic has severely disrupted the work of organisations who are vital to the protection of nature in Wales. We must now rebuild and strengthen our ability to protect nature and increase the presence of nature in our communities for the benefit of our health and our economy. To do this, we will mobilise across Government and throughout communities in every part of Wales, and the group will be a powerful driver for such action. The group is focusing on delivering practical action on carbon emissions and climate risk, reversing the decline in biodiversity and connecting people and nature through investments in green infrastructure.
Our marine stakeholders are feeding directly into this process through our Wales marine action and advisory group. Peter Davies is the chair for the advisory group, which is made up of key coastal and marine stakeholders, partners and non-governmental organisations. Peter also sits on the green recovery taskforce and has been working collaboratively with advisory group members, who are committed to design and support the delivery of an integrated blue recovery stimulus package.
There is a significant opportunity now for coastal communities to lead on a blue recovery, and deliver meaningful improvements to well-being through an integrated approach that recognises the relationships between healthy coasts and seas and local economies. So, whilst I was listening to Joyce talk about the teal new deal, I was thinking that, despite the old saying that my aunt often used to say to me, 'Blue and green should never be seen, except in the washing machine,'I think they go very well together. Diolch.

David Melding AC: Thank you very much, Minister, and that concludes today's proceedings.

The meeting ended at 18:18.

QNR

Questions to the Minister for Education

Dai Lloyd: What assessment has the Minister made of co-operation between local authorities in providing Welsh-medium early years education, particularly in communities close to county boundaries?

Kirsty Williams: We regularly meet with local authorities to discuss the progress being made in developing and strengthening Welsh-medium education. The revised Welsh in education strategic plan guidance, which will be published in January 2021, emphasises the importance of both early years education and partnership working in the effective planning of Welsh-medium education provision.

Mark Isherwood: How is the Welsh Government supporting pupils with additional learning needs through the coronavirus pandemic?

Kirsty Williams: The uncertainties arising from the coronavirus pandemic are particularly challenging for children and young people with additional learning needs, their families, and those who support and care for them. I am committed to doing everything possible to support these learners, parents and carers during this difficult time.

Helen Mary Jones: What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the resources required by Welsh universities to support teaching and learning for students during COVID-19 outbreaks on campus?

Kirsty Williams: We have been working in close partnership with universities, NUS Wales and the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales to develop our collective response to the pandemic. We have provided more than £213 million to HEFCW this financial year, including an additional £27 million higher education investment and recovery fund, recognising the impact of the pandemic on universities.

Questions to the Minister for Finance and Trefnydd

David Rees: What discussions is the Minister having with counterparts in the UK Government on the criteria that will be used to access the shared prosperity fund?

Rebecca Evans: I will be raising this urgent matter again today during a meeting with UK finance Ministers. The UK Government’s progress on the shared prosperity fund has been extremely disappointing, and there is still no clarity on how it will function despite only two months remaining until EU funding tails off.

Neil McEvoy: What consideration has the Minister given to supporting the proposed building safety fund for leaseholders when allocating the Welsh Government budget for next year?

Rebecca Evans: We are currently exploring ways forward that serve the best interests of both leaseholders and taxpayers, recognising the role building owners also need to play in funding this remediation.

Rhun ap Iorwerth: What discussions has the Minister had with the Minister for Housing and Local Government about the funding allocation to Ynys Môn County Council for 2021-22?

Rebecca Evans: I regularly meet with the Minister for Housing and Local Government and council leaders to discuss the local government funding formula through the finance sub-group. This formula generates the funding allocation for Ynys Môn.